AJo vs. 4 limpers

[David BB]

Heres the article by Rolf Slotboom: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...es/?a_id=14121

[MicroBob]

You missed many bets on this one by not raising PF and on the flop.
That's why you should raise.

You likely have the best hand PF (nobody else raised) and the button could be yours for the taking.
Raise Raise Raise.

On the flop - Make ANY K or Q out there pay as much as possible to see the next card.


You really need to be raising these.

[jediael]

Note that had he raised pre-flop, it might have been checked to him on the flop thus not even giving the chance to reraise as an option.
Having read the cardplayer article above and some spots in 2+2 books, I think it is worth giving up the small edge you have pre-flop in ordner to be able to protect your hand afterwards, getting a bigger edge.

Having said that, I would have reraised on the flop for protection against K and Q.

[David BB]

No offense Micro, but you're missing the point completely.

Had I raised pre-flop or on the flop the pot would most likely be exactly the same size on the river. The question is - when is the best time to put my money in?

Also I'm already on the button so raising wont buy it.

[David BB]

[ QUOTE ]
Having said that, I would have reraised on the flop for protection against K and Q.

[/ QUOTE ]

But raising the flop does not protect my hand!

[Barry]

He should not raise "to protect his hand" as everyone has already called the flop bet. They're going to call 1 more. He should raise for value here with the best hand.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
But raising the flop does not protect my hand!

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on what you mean by "protecting your hand". There is no good way to protect your hand in the sense of making people fold. If you are talking about making your opponents make mistakes than raising the flop does accomplish this as a 3 out hand such as a King or a Queen is not getting the correct odds to call a single bet on the flop and also won't be getting correct odds to call a raise. Whether or not you raise the flop your opponents are going to get correct odds to call with a single pair drawing to two pair or trips and you are in horrible relative position to stop this.

A flop raise may psychological cause your opponents to incorrectly fold on the turn with one of these hands since they will "know" they are beat. This is a good thing. Really though, I think you should raise the flop for one reason: equity. That is almost the perfect flop for your hand and although some of your opponents may be getting correct odds to call your bet there is no way all 5 of them are and BB may reraise you forcing the players in between you two to call two bets cold and none of them will have a strong enough hand to make that call correct. Hence, it is for this reason that I think raising the flop is better than waiting until the turn. Of the people that saw the flop you stand to make the most money on from the bets that go in on the flop since you will almost assuredly have the largest equity and some of these guys are likely drawing to runner runner on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Had I raised pre-flop or on the flop the pot would most likely be exactly the same size on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

This is faulty logic. You can't garuntee that the hand plays out this way - you really need to be looking at what the best play is regardless of the result. I know you know this I just wanted to point it out again.

PS. I raise this hand pre-flop because I like raising and I think AJo is a pretty strong hand. In fact I would be quite sure it is the best hand in this spot and I would like it if the blinds folded (dead money is good money). Against 5 limpers the difference in EV between raising and calling is probably very small but my style is to raise it. I doubt calling is much of a mistake though. Folding would be simply horrible in case anyone was wondering.

[David BB]

Hi Sanadan! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

My point is that I want people to call two bets with a weak draw in order to make a significant mistake, but you have a good point about people making a mistake calling just one bet. Anyway, I really think raising the flop or waiting for the turn is really close EV wise. Don't you agree?

[ QUOTE ]
This is faulty logic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. It was in response to MicroBob claiming that I missed bets which I didn't - or which isn't relevant.

I usually raise AJo pre-flop in this position but decided to try a different approach this time. I also think raising/limping is really close here. But raising does tend to make the hand easier to play post flop.

[MarkD]

Raising / limping pre-flop is probably a coin flip. I just don't think it matters much here with the number of opponents you have.

I understand what you are saying about wanting your opponents to be faced with the possibility of calling two bets cold. Yes, that would be a good thing, but there is no way for you to make that happen so we are left with the decision as to how to best maximize the value of our hand. I believe it is by raising the flop for the reasons I previously outlined. Is it close between raising the turn or raising the flop? Yah, it probably is quite close. In fact, in the actual hand you made more by waiting, but I believe overall the best play would be to raise the flop.

I have no way of really proving this supposition but I believe it to be true. Honestly, I have a feeling the difference is so minimal as to be pointless though.

[balkii]

You are really missing the boat on the waiting for the turn thing.

The time to wait till the turn is when is when your pot equity edge is gonna be drastically affected one way or another by the turn card. That is, the turn card will either give your edge such a boost that you should wait to get the raise in there because it will be so much more profitable - OR - the turn card will make it likely you are drawing dead or have fallen way behind, and you save money by not raising the flop.

That is NOT the case in this hand. You have AJ on J64r flop. You have a huge amount of equity on this flop, i'll bet half the flop callers are drawing to runner runner or 3 outs at most. Your equity will no go way up or way down on the turn because only rarely will someone make a hand that you making two pair/trips wont beat. Charge these guys before they get a clue and fold on the turn.

PF, on the button after 4 limpers, I'm about 50/50 on the raise or limp there. If I was the CO, I'd probably raise everytime.