Preflop decision: ATo

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I should clarify: this is *not* one of those "let me educate the Small Stakes" posts. I don't know what the right answer is. But I think there are good arguments for all three options, and this might get a good discussion going.

I'm not sure if terming it a "monster" is correct; it is probably the best hand, but ATo simply won't have that much equity in a multiway field. It is much weaker than say AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=436619
pokenum -h ac td - 9h th - qd 4d - jc 8s - 3c 3d
Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Td 177353 20.85 660146 77.60 13169 1.55 0.216
Th 9h 163424 19.21 674075 79.24 13169 1.55 0.199
Qd 4d 184477 21.69 664852 78.16 1339 0.16 0.217
8s Jc 152184 17.89 697145 81.95 1339 0.16 0.179
3c 3d 160061 18.82 689268 81.03 1339 0.16 0.188

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=436622
pokenum -h ac td - 9h jh - qd 4d - jc 8s - as 6h
Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Td 178107 20.94 650618 76.48 21943 2.58 0.222
Jh 9h 215780 25.37 614041 72.18 20847 2.45 0.265
Qd 4d 233213 27.42 616115 72.43 1340 0.16 0.274
8s Jc 96230 11.31 733591 86.24 20847 2.45 0.125
As 6h 85888 10.10 742837 87.32 21943 2.58 0.113

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=436625
pokenum -h ac td - 7h 5h - qd jc - ks 6s
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Td 270236 24.88 814284 74.98 1488 0.14 0.249
7h 5h 268882 24.76 815638 75.10 1488 0.14 0.248
Jc Qd 256979 23.66 827541 76.20 1488 0.14 0.237
Ks 6s 288423 26.56 796097 73.30 1488 0.14 0.266

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=436626
pokenum -h ac td - 7h 5h - qd 9d - tc js
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Td 288114 26.53 785094 72.29 12800 1.18 0.271
7h 5h 304809 28.07 779113 71.74 2086 0.19 0.281
Qd 9d 299181 27.55 784741 72.26 2086 0.19 0.276
Js Tc 181104 16.68 892104 82.15 12800 1.18 0.172

[nepenthe]

I raise and welcome them with open arms if they coldcall.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold. Raising is not going to accomplish anything. The loose players behind you will coldcall and you'll end up with mediocre position in a big multi-way pot with a hand that doesn't play well multiway.

For those who are saying "raise", what would you do if you had ATo on the button after 4 limpers and loose blinds on the left of you? I think this is a pretty similar situation - actually a bit worse because of your position.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're forgetting how loose they are and how poorly they play. I would normally fold and maybe call in my regular 3/6 and 5/10 games but Nate describes these players as much worse than the players that frequent those games. I think you're giving up alot by folding.

[Dylan Wade]

[ QUOTE ]
I should clarify: this is *not* one of those "let me educate the Small Stakes" posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA

I say raise. With three people behind you who may likely play with you with inferior hands, you might as well make them pay double. It turns their likely call into a bigger mistake, and that helps you....

The only argument I can see for calling is to encourage weak aces to play who will call down a pair of aces-no kicker on the later streets. However, the fools have already demonstrated that they are masters of cold-calling. Might as well profit more on their mistakes pre-flop as well.

[joker122]

Those numbers make calling look better, but they are still very close. The fact that the hand becomes easier to play when raised would push this into a raise, IMO.

[sthief09]

there's only 1 limper.

[Brian]

I say raise and it's not close. Are you afraid of bad players behind you calling with worse hands? Would rather they pay 2 bets with their trash than 1. I don't think folding is an option.

-Brian

[sthief09]

how can you assume the blinds have such good hands? they could literally have anything at this point.

[joker122]

there's only 1 limper.

Nate said that 2 of the 3 left to act are extremely loose (calling 3 bets preflop with 73s), and I think he meant to imply that they would come along no matter what. If they fold that's even better though.

[Hitch]

Why does this hand become easier to play if you raise? To me, it would seem harder.