Tongue Lashings and the Ed Miller Approach

[Barry]

He wants the A's to fold to give him the whole pot if a 4 comes.

[JinX11]

Glad you turned the other cheek...you're better than I.

I think I would've suggested that they should want me at the table if I was such a bad player. Then, I would have proceeded to raise the next hand pre-flop without looking at my cards. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[colgin]

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If he gets an A and/or a 6 to fold he could have 9 outs. It's a good raise on the flop.

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The pot is enormous. I don't see how a flop raise gets an Ace or 6 to fold. I think it only knocks out hands he would prefer to stay in.

[Noodles]

I agree ,no way in the world is an ace folding that flop

[BigEndian]

Check the turn, bet the river. Nice hand overall though.

- Jim

[Malcom Reynolds]

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The pot is enormous. I don't see how a flop raise gets an Ace or 6 to fold. I think it only knocks out hands he would prefer to stay in.

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With the raise the next person on the flop is getting around 8.5 to 1 to call. That makes it incorrect for the 6 to call needing 10.5 to 1 on the gutshot. You can't really value even half an out to the 6 as an overcard.

So the question is if you could convince an ace to fold. First suppose there are two overcards, like AK. You can't value these at full outs because of the coordinated nature of the board. It doesn't help that your AK is facing a bet and a raise. If you count like SSHE, you would at most give them 1.5 outs each, and with the gutshot around 7 outs. Needing 5.6 to 1. But if there is another ace out there, then you are drawing to half of the pot, cutting down your odds by half. And you could be beaten by someone drawing with a six. And there is a flush possibly also devaluing your hand. And you're facing a bet and a raise, so two people seem to already like their hands so far. So calling here can't be comfortable.

Now let's look at the psychology of typical player at Pokerroom.com. Against a bet and a raise, the next player could easily view the overcard outs as worthless with the only real strong draw being their gutshot. Now I don't know about you but the last time I played on Pokerroom they didn't think this hard through it. They'd see a bet and a raise, and all they have is a gut-shot, and they know never to chase with a gut-shot, so it's a fold.

Even so, it's costing you only one more bet to potentially save you the pot if you do hit the ace. Sometimes you will lose that bet, but you don't need to convince a better ace to fold too many times before this is profitable.

[jmark]

[ QUOTE ]
With the raise the next person on the flop is getting around 8.5 to 1 to call. That makes it incorrect for the 6 to call needing 10.5 to 1 on the gutshot. You can't really value even half an out to the 6 as an overcard.

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What? It was capped 8-ways preflop! The next person is getting more like 17:1.

To the OP:

Why do you want a bigger ace to fold? So you can make less when you hit 2-pair? Well I guess it doesn't matter because you didn't bet your 2-pair on the river when you hit it.

Did you ever think you were way behind on the flop when it was limp-reraised and capped preflop, and that what you were hoping for with your flop raise was to isolate yourself against the guy with a big overpair?

And why didn't you 3-bet the turn? If you thought you could value-bet it, you surely can value raise it?

[colgin]

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The pot is enormous. I don't see how a flop raise gets an Ace or 6 to fold. I think it only knocks out hands he would prefer to stay in.

[ QUOTE ]
With the raise the next person on the flop is getting around 8.5 to 1 to call. That makes it incorrect for the 6 to call needing 10.5 to 1 on the gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

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The flop was capped 8 ways pre-flop making it 32 small bets. When the SB bets out there are 33 small bets. A raise, therefore, makes the odds to the next player 16.5:1. Of course, the effective odds are potentially worse given the pre-flop action.

[Malcom Reynolds]

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What? It was capped 8-ways preflop!

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Ah. I misread it. I apologize then.

[Malcom Reynolds]

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The flop was capped 8 ways pre-flop making it 32 small bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I definitely misread the OP [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. So when you raise, the callers with an ace will correctly call.

As it stands though, The pot is huge and you're not going anywhere, and even if you can't cut down the odds very well, I still think that if raising can make a better ace fold sometimes (and they sometimes will because lots of people don't calculate odds on the spot and figure out of the pot is giving them enough, and many people play with weak-tight rules like 'never play a gut-shot') it's worth the extra bet.

Again, I apolgize for misreading the OP.