Beginner's series: Playing the big stack effectively

[turnipmonster]

this is precisely why you can make a lot of money playing a short stack in a deep stack game. you will often win the main pot with a made hand while the side pot is contested by a bunch of draws. you will also get like 4 to 1 on your money. once I saw KK win the main pot of about 1k and an Ace high win the 4k+ side pot (both hand flush draws, the lower one was open ended straight as well).

the thing about a short stack that most people aren't psychologically ready for is you will go bust a lot. when one of those draws makes it, or you run into a set you are just going to have to lose your chips, since you can't really make big laydowns.

--turnipmonster

[brewmeister6]

I am not that great of a ring player, but here is my thought... When I have the big stack, I am the bad guy, right... That means that when people have a very strong hands on the flop, they are going to play tricky by playing traps and maybe slow playing a bigger hands like two pair, and overpair, or trips... This is why I like to play good drawing hands like open ended straight draws and I'm willing to pay bets that are around 5 times the blinds to see if I make theu draw especially when there are a few people in their with me(with no flush draws on the flop)... If I hit it, they're going to feel like I'm being a bully him when I raise his 5 bb bet to a 20 bb bet...

Guys, I am beggining too, but tell me if this is a bad idea in the long run..

[JrJordan]

Great thread so far. I'm glad to see the small NL isn't turning into a beginner's bad beat forum for $25 NL. Let's keep it this way with discussions like this.

I don't necessarily agree with Reuben and Ciaffone's approach for small pocket pairs. I feel, especially at the shallow Party tables, that drawing for the set can be profitable from any position. Sure it sucks when set over set happens. We've all been there. With shallow stacks though, losing the stack is not nearly as bad. Likewise, a PF raiser is more likely to use his whole stack on an overpair like AA or KK vs. your set when playing with shallow stacks. By the time he realizes you have a monster, he is already pot committed. In a 200 BB game, these overpairs can usually get away without losing their stack. However, you'd be hard pressed to fold your lower set in the same deep stack situation.

All in all, I think the shallow stacks made small pocket pairs go up in value, and basically playable in any position as long as you follow the 5-10 rule that Reuben and Ciaffone mention. Comments?

[vulturesrow]

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I don't necessarily agree with Reuben and Ciaffone's approach for small pocket pairs

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as long as you follow the 5-10 rule that Reuben and Ciaffone mention.

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Jr,

Can you explain these, as I dont own the book though I am going to order it soon.

Chris

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
If I hit it, they're going to feel like I'm being a bully him when I raise his 5 bb bet to a 20 bb bet...

[/ QUOTE ]

no one is going to think you are trying to bully them unless they just have no understanding of NL cash games (so maybe at the PP 25 tables [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). the concept of someone "being a bully" does not exist in a cash game.

drawing hands are really all about implied odds you are getting from your opponent's stack. if your opponents have 25xBB, then calling a raise with suited connectors isn't profitable because the most you can make is 5x, and you will not hit your hand enough to make that a profitable call. so when you or your opponents have shallow stacks, avoid playing suited connectors for a raise.

--turnipmonster

[JrJordan]

Not a problem. Reuben and Ciaffone make the suggestion to not play small pocket pairs 22-66 in the early positions. The reaoning is that in an aggressive game you will most likely face a reraise, limiting your implied odds. When you call this PF raise, with deep stacks there are only a few things that can happen, none of them particularly good for you: Villain has AK/AQ and misses the flop so you will win a small pot. Villain has TPTK or an overpair with AA/KK, makes a signficant bet, but slows down when you show strength and the likely set. You get paid off some, but rarely get the whole stack because it is so deep. Lastly, your opponent flops a set with a higher pocket pair. Most likely here, you lose your entire stack.

My argument was that this situation does not necessarily apply to the 50BB and maybe the 100BB stacks we play online. At the 50BB, opponenets would be hard pressed to fold their overpair to your set, because they are most likely pot committed before they know the monster you have. This counters the possibility that you will lose to a higher set. Thus, small pocket pairs go up in value IMO as long as you have proper implied odds.

Reuben and Ciffaone's book mentions the 5-10 rule. This is a basic concept that helps you determine whether to call a PF raise or not with your pocket pair, based on implied odds. If the PF raise you face is less than 5% of both your stack and the preflop raisers stack, then it is an easy call. If it is greater than 10% of the smaller of your two stacks, you must fold. Anywhere in between is a judgement call. This will depend on your position relative to the raise, as well as any other people that have entered the pot to give you better impled odds. The reasoning behind this is that you will only flop a set 1 in 8.5 tries. Some of these times you will lose to a better hand such as a set, or some sort of draw. At pot odds of 10:1, it becomes barely justifiable to play this hand because of the risk of losing, as well as the possibility of the PF raiser not paying you off. Hence, fold at 10% or greater. 20:1 gives you a much greater chance to make the set profitbale because of the deeper stacks, hence play %5 or less. Just an easy way to apply impled odds to pocker pairs drawing for a set.

[daryn]

turnip,

i tried to make your exact argument in the IRC chat the other day, but i was shouted down and told that the big stack has a huge advantage in cash games.

i'm still on the fence [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[turnipmonster]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BIG STACK BULLYING ANYONE IN A CASH GAME WHERE YOU CAN REBUY EVER.

there. I said it, and now I feel better. I love to debate this because I am right, and everyone who disagrees is wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. the only big stack argument I have ever heard that made an ounce of sense was a case prevaricator came up with where you had everyone outchipped by a ton (like 20x more than the small stack), and that was for a heads up situation.

--turnipmonster

[Leo Bello]

Advantage over fish/begginers. there is indeed. They tend to think the big stack is a great player, and tend to fold to any steal try.
It does bring you the problem of people slowplaying against you. But hey, that can happen with virtually any stack.
And I personally think it is an disadvantage playing short-stacked in relation to the big stack in the game. when you hit your hands, it will not double you up.
Into becoming softer because you are the bigger stack, I wouldn´t vow for it.

[Wayfare]

The set comments from Jordan are very true in my experience. I believe my sets vs. top pair of a fish are my greatest moneymaker, almost always resulting in a double through. Fish just can't get away from TPTK, and the short stacks make it even harder.

The flipside to this is you need to remember that the short stack makes you more vulnerable to someone else having a set as well. If you got a cold caller with a 6x BB raise preflop (lets say you have AK), you might want to play it differently with position. If you get check raised on the flop, you are against a set a lot of the time. I usually won't call a large checkraise on the flop (unless its a maniac) with only TPTK, I don't think the increased variance is worth the tiny EV it may (or may not) gain you. It's much much more profitable to wait for a set or two pair (from the blinds) and just go to town with it. You will almost never put your stack in jeopardy, and the first time you double up, you can start playing "for real" (with 100x+ stacks).

Indeed, much of my win rate comes from staying at tables for the long haul after I have doubled up. Many players at party will get lucky and double through their $25/$50 and have no idea how to play that deep. If you get even stacks with them, your overwhelming objective is to get into a position you double through them. Although it might take a bit longer, its twice as profitable as doubling through someone with original stack sizes. This could mean anything from calling more raises from the other big stack with a pocket pair to just calling instead of reraising with a made hand to "keep the other guy (big stack)" in. Only do the latter if you are confident enough in your turn and river play to be able to get away if you are beat.