QQ 15-30

[andyfox]

"most live players are way too passive and horrible to raise JJ on a k-high flop after you capped preflop."

I would say most live players in 15-30 are way too passive and not horrible enough to raise JJ on a K-high flop after you capped preflop. And many are just passive enough to go into a calldown mode with A-K when you 3-bet them on the flop.

[Michael Davis]

"I would say most live players in 15-30 are way too passive and not horrible enough to raise JJ on a K-high flop after you capped preflop. And many are just passive enough to go into a calldown mode with A-K when you 3-bet them on the flop."

You is right.

-Michael

[mike l.]

"if he's ACTUALLY strong enough to raise JJ here then I think you should just check-call down the whole way and let him bet his hand, because if he is strong enough to raise JJ here he should be strong enough to dump the hand when it meets further resistance, and that's what you give him by threebetting. So I think the threebet puts you in a position where most of the time you're getting called down only by better hands. Now, you'll say that live players don't fold JJ there. Fine, they don't. But the guys that can't fold it don't raise on that flop."

he had exactly JJ. surfdoc can verify it. players mess with me man. he raised the flop intending, i think, to check the turn and call the river.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
river is an A. what should i do...

[/ QUOTE ]

Get a productive job.

[ QUOTE ]
..... and why?

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In the long run, it is much less annoying.

-Zeno

[siegfriedandroy]

Im confused about Michael's point, that it would be 'correct' to wait till the turn w/ a hand like ak. Why is this correct? It is clearly not one of those situations where it's better to wait to protect more effectively.

Michael Davis, you are one of the posters I respect. Instinctively it seems you should get the raise in on the flop and exploit your edge. From my reading of TFHAP and SSHE, the rule, and not the exception, seems to say get the money in when youre ahead. Is it different here just b/c it's heads up? Youre response would be appreciated.

[drewjustdrew]

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anyway that said, what about the idea that if i check the river he will check behind instinctually with a lot of kings he should bet (KQ/KJ/KT)?

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Is he really going to 3 bet an early raiser with any of these hands, just cuz he's on the button? I give AK, AQ, JJ, TT, 99 as his most likely holdings, with preference to JJ like you did. JJ only after his flop and turn play though.

I check call your situation. He may fold river to a bet with JJ, TT, but may bluff when checked to.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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live full table not good boring day time 15-30 game. i get QQ utg and raise, folded to button who 3 bets, i 4 bet, he calls, heads up. i dont know button at all.

flop is K73, i bet, he raises, i 3 bet, he calls.

turn is a 5, i bet, he calls.

river is an A. what should i do and why?

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mike,

First, find better, less boring games. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

My initial thought was check and call the river. I don't see unknown holding AK, I think he'd find a turn raise with TP/TK head up. There is some chance unknown player tries to bluff off JJ thru 88 here and he will often check down a king without the ace (although how many weak kings three bet an UTG raiser?). A bet here will rarely/never get him to lay down a better hand. OTOH, he will often call the JJ thru 88 type hands out of frustration.

That said, the money saved by seeing him check down his weaker kings combined with bluffing off his weaker pairs probably offsets the money earned by having him call a river bet with a weaker hand. Another problem with betting is that unknown might be a maniac, and a maniac might be capable of raising the river with an underpair.

Against the unknown, check and call the river.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Now, you'll say that live players don't fold JJ there. Fine, they don't. But the guys that can't fold it don't raise on that flop.

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Flop raises don't mean much in LA except against known, nitty opponents. And there aren't many of them.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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"the only way your flop 3-bet can make much sense is if you now bet the river."

fine. please note though he is never ever ever folding a better hand here. no one ever does that ever. never. ever.

anyway that said, what about the idea that if i check the river he will check behind instinctually with a lot of kings he should bet (KQ/KJ/KT)?

[/ QUOTE ]

This combined with him bluffing off smaller pairs makes check-calling the play. Folding is insane at this point.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Maybe you can find the fold on the river that you missed on the flop.
-Michael

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You might only call the flop raise but my guess from playing in your game is that you would never fold this on the flop and find a way to get to the river.

~ Rick