TP but I cant protect.

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]

I'd still 3-bet after it two back to me.

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I initially thought this too but after some additional thought I don't like it.

If we are ahead, we are not going to lose anybody (except maybe the BB) with our vulnerable hand. Say UTG+1 is raising here with AK or AQ, we are not going to lose him or any other overcards with our raise. The others already committed 2 sbs to the pot, so 1 more is not going to do the trick. Therefore, our 3-bet is not going to elimate anyone we would like to.

Now, let's say UTG+1 has a real hand and we are behind. Let's look at the best and worst case scenario with our 3-bet:

1) We lose BB, UTG+1 caps and we lose everyone else. It would appear that this is good for us, but I don't think it is. I think this is one of those situations where getting everyone else to fold increases his equity greatly while only effecting ours slightly. Using pokerstove, I ran the following:

Our hand
4 others with any broadway, any pocket pair and any suited. True, a very wide range but I think it's okay.

I then gave UTG the four likely hands we are behind, AA-JJ. (remember, this is assuming we are behind).

This is what I got-

Agaisnt AA, multiway- His equity 45%, Ours 17%
Against AA, heads-up-His equity 77%, ours 22%

KK, multiway-42/11
KK heads-up-87/13

QQ, multiway-37/18
QQ, heads-up-75/25

JJ, multiway-83/4
JJ, heads-up-96/4

Overall versus those hands, our equity increases from 15% to 20% while his increases from 44% to 80%!

The pot would have to be 40 sbs for the 5% increase to equal our extra 2 sbs invested. Obviously, it is not.

Scenario #2) Our 3-bet doesn't lose anyone. Either UTG caps the flop or raises or donk-bet on the turn, but nobody goes anywhere. We spend an additional 2-3 sbs then we had to when we are drawing to 6.5 outs.

Either way, I don't think our raise helps us when we are ahead or behind. If I am mistaken in any of this, please let me know.

Why bet this flop?

What hands are you trying to fold?

You only want to bet in the PFR if he's going to raise a worse hand. What worse hands is the PFR going to raise here?

If he happens to hold AQ, the worst possible worst hand he could hold and lets say he will raise with it, then we are quite happy for every other Qx, Kx and Ax to stay and pad the pot for us because we aren't cleaning up any outs when he does raise. He holds the overcards we're trying to fold anyway.

I'm just throwing this out there.

Even when they're fish, how often do we see a 6 or a 2 in a cold calling hand?
How often do fish fold their pocket pairs...if they were going to call one, will they call two?


When we can't protect, the next thing we should concentrate on is value...I think we have enough equity to c/r the flop or the turn.

I think if you want any chance at reducing this field, I'd check/3bet the flop and lead the turn.

But I'm more than happy with the way you played it.

I'm probably completely speaking [censored] but I'd love for someone with more poker knowledge than me to address the issues.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
Why bet this flop?

What hands are you trying to fold?

You only want to bet in the PFR if he's going to raise a worse hand. What worse hands is the PFR going to raise here?

If he happens to hold AQ, the worst possible worst hand he could hold and lets say he will raise with it, then we are quite happy for every other Qx, Kx and Ax to stay and pad the pot for us because we aren't cleaning up any outs when he does raise. He holds the overcards we're trying to fold anyway.

I'm just throwing this out there.

Even when they're fish, how often do we see a 6 or a 2 in a cold calling hand?
How often do fish fold their pocket pairs...if they were going to call one, will they call two?


When we can't protect, the next thing we should concentrate on is value...I think we have enough equity to c/r the flop or the turn.

I think if you want any chance at reducing this field, I'd check/3bet the flop and lead the turn.

But I'm more than happy with the way you played it.

I'm probably completely speaking [censored] but I'd love for someone with more poker knowledge than me to address the issues.

[/ QUOTE ]
the abovew two responses have confused me as to whether a flop bet is good or not. sorry for the bump but im still not comfortable as to which is best in this hand.