Not allowed to read the rules?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Having a pamphlet readily available, a relatively detailed one, that explains the basic rules, ettiquette and procedures, is a fantastic idea.

Allowing the players to have access to a rule book which is typically many pages long (sometimes 30 or more, depending on the room) would be disastrous.

al

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
My local cardroom is Canterbury Park. I believe the rules are available in the cardroom, although I have never asked. The rules are published on their web site. They also have a detailed glossary in case of any confusion as to the meaning of basic English. Failure to provide the rules is unfair and insulting to players. It's also a cop-out and cover-up for lazy, incompetent, insecure floormen. If a floorman knows his job, he should have no problem discussing the rules with a player who has read the rules.


[/ QUOTE ]

What is posted on the website is similiar to what you would find on the wall of a card room. Those are not complete rules and procedures, that is what the player needs to know.

The main problem problem with giving players the comnplete rules is the players always skip over the part that says the floorman will rule in the best interest of the game even if that means violating a strict interpretation of the rules. Poker players are also notorious for lelaving out some details and applying a rule form another situation that doesn't apply to the current situation. Here is an example (a very similiar situation occured with some well known players involved,):

In a touranment the limit is 400-800 with 200-400 blinds. Under the gun player puts 600 in the pot. Floor comes over and rules this is a raise. A well known poker personality writes about this situation describing it as above and mentions the floor made a horrible ruling (after he thre a tantrum at the actual event). Seems pretty clear floor got it wrong. But there were a couple detail left out. The limit had just gone up from 300-600 and the BB only posted the 200 and the UTG player put in 600 so the floor ruled correctly that the UTG player made his intention clear that he wanted to raise so he correctly ignored the literal rule that you have to put in more than half a raise to raise. The people involved in this example are well known in the industry; if they have a problem with fighting about what the rules say why would you want to give all the angle shooters a rule book so when their angle shot is disallowed in the interest of fairness they have a book to pull out and argue over? Note: I might have the numbers wrong in the example, but the incident occurred on a cruise in 2001.

[bernie]

Can you imagine how long it could take to get through a hand if some petty nit wanted to call every petty rule he can find during a hand?

I know a couple players like that. They just enjoy holding up a game like they were on stage or something.

b

[ QUOTE ]
We are going to play a game, but the rules are secret???

[/ QUOTE ]I would imagine that reading the rules is perfectly fine with the floor, as long as you're not sitting at an active table at the time. Not having the right to read and argue the rules, right there and then, should not be confused with the right to know the rules (which I would argue is a responsibility, not a right).

In the end, the house has the right to not even have its own written rulebook. Universal cardroom rules can be easily obtained before you hit the casino - and the right to see showdown hands IS a universal rule (look under "Showdown"). The guy sounds like either a cardroom newbie or an angle shooter.

On the other hand, if you're going to ask to see someone's hand, you had better 1) ask fast, and 2) expect to have to show him yours a lot from then on.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What you say makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't make a bit of sense.

We are going to play a game, but the rules are secret??? Because I'm too freakin' stupid to understand them??? And I suppose if you break a rule you get put on double-secret probation? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Does it say in the rules that I can't see the rules?? I want to see that in the rules. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

My local cardroom is Canterbury Park. I believe the rules are available in the cardroom, although I have never asked. The rules are published on their web site. They also have a detailed glossary in case of any confusion as to the meaning of basic English. Failure to provide the rules is unfair and insulting to players. It's also a cop-out and cover-up for lazy, incompetent, insecure floormen. If a floorman knows his job, he should have no problem discussing the rules with a player who has read the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rules are posted in the corner by table 25. You prolly have never seen them because Harold is in the way.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I fully agree. Allowing the entire rules document to be read by the public would be nit heaven, and a very bad idea.

al

[Rick Nebiolo]

A few random comments:

- Note that poker rules are modified on occasion and noted in a floormen's daily log (such modifications are signed off by a shift manager or higher up). It's not possible to constantly re-publish the rule book so it usually isn't completely up to date.

- I used to be strongly in favor of having rulebooks freely available. However Randy Refeld changed my mind somewhat (along with similar arguments made on this board in past years).

- Poker rules could be better written. It's possible to make available (perhaps at nominal cost) the complete set of rules and keep a bulletin board of key changes. I'm not sure it's a good idea though, given that nits will constantly be creating rule argument (negated somewhat if the rules are good and well written).

- Poker rulebooks often contain information that is essentially policy. Examples are policies regarding "must move" and policies regarding arguments over who gets a newly empty seat . Policies often change, don't impact the play of the hand, and should not be in a rulebook (they can be posted or written elsewhere).

- I do think that key rules should be posted on a wall chart or in one page (or notecard sized) handouts. This is especially applicable to newly popular games such as the smaller fixed buy-in NL holdem games. Two examples of rules that could or should be posted are "A bet or raise is not complete until it is released into the pot - wait for others to complete their action before acting on your hand" and "Players taking a table change must start with the normal buy-in". The table change buy-in rule seems obvious, but they are different all over LA and I've seen dealers advise/rule incorrectly almost every time I play.

- Some floormen don't understand key rules. Example: A few years ago I saw a top section floor (with about 30 years experience) rule incorrectly on whether or not a raise re-opened the betting in a 40/80 game. This rule isn't open to interpretation (some are); unfortunately I'm fairly sure he isn't the only floor that would fail to rule correctly in the more complicated situations regarding this important rule.

As an aside, I recently spoke with a shift manager in a large LA club. The club had adopted a policy/rule applicable to the smaller fixed buy in NL games. It is (more or less) "if a player facing a bet or raise exposes his hand face up his hand is declared dead". I think the rule has merit (since many newbies do think that an exposed hand is dead and give off tells to the player who exposed his cards). The main point I made (the shift manager was curious regarding my opinion) was that such a rule should be clearly posted, especially since other local clubs don't use it and it impacts the play of the hand and showdown. Note that this same club does not apply this rule to the PL game (populated by mostly experienced players).

~ Rick