A bluff that worked, $20/$40 online

[Bartholow]

Most often after a raise there the pot would end up headsup in this game. 2nd most likely would be 3 way, then winning the antes, followed by more multiway, IME. But I get what you are saying.

[BeerMoney]

I actually don't mind the third street raise. Even if you don't steal the antes, you're still in good shape.

After thinking about it, I guess I don't really like the bluff. I think he has 2 pair here. What makes you think he's folding? He doesn't have a 3 flush or 3 straight, otherwise he probably wouldn't have kept on going past 4th street.

(I don't think i've ever folded 2 pair heads up, even when my opponent has 3 of a kind showing. Its just not in my nature.)

This hand is really puzzling my now.

[jayheaps]

I don't like the completion either.

1) this is the kinda of hand you want to play multi-way

2) if the game is as loose as you say, you might be able to reraise with your hand and isolate the loose players. By raising, if you are called several timse, you have no teal information about where you stand in the hand.

[Bartholow]

Ok, I'm worried that I'm coming off too much as defending my actions, which is not my intent, but I do disagree with some of your reasoning.

A) [ QUOTE ]
if the game is as loose as you say...

[/ QUOTE ] I never said the game was loose. In fact I said a completion on 3rd would usually result in a heads up pot. But you somehow think that the game is loose, and that because it is loose I should limp and then reraise to isolate? (The idea of isolation in a loose game is particularly odd given that you also say I want to play my hand multiway.)

B) [ QUOTE ]
this is the kinda of hand you want to play multi-way

[/ QUOTE ] As is pretty clearly explained in 7CSFAP, some drawing hands prefer multiway action, but others do not. Having overcards to other people's hands puts you in the camp of hands that often do better by knocking people out. In fact, one of the reasons I like my completion is that this hand can play reasonably well both multiway or headsup.

C) [ QUOTE ]
By raising, if you are called several timse, you have no teal information about where you stand in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ] And by just calling I'll know exactly where I stand? I've heard this line of reasoning a few times and I think it is flawed. If I call and someone else raises it could mean a lot of things; I certainly won't know yet exactly "where I stand." On the other hand, if I raise and get reraised, this narrow's my opponent's holdings a lot more. Unfortunately, still not enough to really know for sure what's up. Because players in this game are deceptive. I'll still have to play poker, which involves complex thinking about ranges of hands for opponents. Especially in stud, it's really difficult to "know where you stand".


Ok, that said, I do think the completion is debatable: My hand's really not very strong, my 9 is quite dead. I could just fold and avoid getting myself involved in a hand where I get sucked further and further in and end up making a really sketchy bluff [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], potentially throwing away a number of bit bets with no hand.

Let's keep the discussion going, this is interesting to me at least.

[Bartholow]

Yeah, as I said elsewhere I think the bluff was probably bad. It certainly looks like he has two pair, and probably won't fold them. This bluff could be good vs. someone tight who thinks if I raise his open nines I must have 999 beat, but this opponent is loose.

I guess my opponent actually had a gutshot, starting with a hand basically like mine on 4th. So the king did help enough for this player to keep coming, and maybe the 7 even made him a double gutter. Who knows really.

[CarlosChadha]

Hi All,

I have never taken the time to post in the past, but the plethora of differing opinions made it hard to resist putting in my 2 cents.

Concerning your 3rd st. raise, I think it is almost mandatory given the upcards, your description of the table and my own experience playing in this game on a regular basis. Besides what has already been mentioned, by raising you make it very hard for any split pair without an overcard kicker or 2 wired overcards to call (the average player in this game is capable of making this type of fold regularly). By limping, you allow any small pair, 3 str8, or 2 wired overcards to correctly limp behind you and by giving up the initative you make it much harder to steal when you hit a scare card on 4th (any face card or suited card, which means more than half the cards in the deck are either helpful or scary).

Another nice thing about having 4 players with dead door cards is that they become easier to read. When they call it is somewhat more likely that they are on a draw (most likely a 3 flush) than normal because they would be more apt to throw away a pair lower than jacks when they know one of their kickers is dead. Also, if you get reraised by a dead card it is now more likely than usual that they have a big wired pair (rather than a big 3 flush or split pair and overcard kicker) because many players at this level understand that their raises will get less respect (on all sts.) when their door card is dead, so they will be less likely to get tricky.

Some have mentioned that the small ante calls for the more tight passive approach of just calling because there is less to win by stealing. But that same small ante actually means that you need to often raise with your strong drawing hands when you have the highest or 2nd highest card showing, because otherwise most of the regulars in this game (of which there are many due to only 2 tables being offered) will be able to easily read you for a big pair every time to raise with a big card up and all you will get is the tiny antes every time when you have the best hand. Then when no one ever gives you action you might get it in your head to start slowplaying (limping on 3rd) your big pairs which opens the door you getting drawn out by a ton of limpers who are correctly calling the tiny $5 bringin (believe me...I've already made this mistake myself;-).

As for your raise on 6th I agree with what you have already said about it being a mistake...no loose agressive player is going to fold 2 pair on the river (let alone 6th) so your bluff is just going to be throwing money away in all but the rarest cases. Even against a more solid player, the 6th st. raise would almost always be incorrect, because very few players will fold 2 pair on 6th, even if they know it is beat because at this point the pot is very large and it is usually correct, or very close to correct to call hoping to fill up. Against a solid player a better line would be to just call on the 6th, and raise as a bluff on the river because many solid (and sone not so solid) players will fold 2 pair on the river when one of their pairs (especially the higher one) is showing since your raise into an obvious 2 pair looks very strong.

Hope that was helpful!

-Carlos

[Bartholow]

Thanks for the response Carlos. Good analysis of how the opponent's will see my raise on 3rd.

I was fairly certain that I'd have to also bet the river for my bluff to work, but I figured this looked stronger than just waiting and raising the river. Do you think the opponents in this game would find it more believable to wait till the river? I'm not sure on this one.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi All,

I have never taken the time to post in the past, but the plethora of differing opinions made it hard to resist putting in my 2 cents.



[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome, I'm psyched to have a 20/40 player here.

[ QUOTE ]


Some have mentioned that the small ante calls for the more tight passive approach of just calling because there is less to win by stealing. But that same small ante actually means that you need to often raise with your strong drawing hands when you have the highest or 2nd highest card showing, because otherwise most of the regulars in this game (of which there are many due to only 2 tables being offered) will be able to easily read you for a big pair every time to raise with a big card up and all you will get is the tiny antes every time when you have the best hand. Then when no one ever gives you action you might get it in your head to start slowplaying (limping on 3rd) your big pairs which opens the door you getting drawn out by a ton of limpers who are correctly calling the tiny $5 bringin (believe me...I've already made this mistake myself;-).



[/ QUOTE ]

I really appreciate this analysis.

[CarlosChadha]

Hi Bartholow,

All the comments below apply to playing against a solid, *thinking* player...not LAP you have already described: Since you last card is face down in 7 stud, a river raise is actually a lot scarier than a 6th st. raise. On 6th st. your best possible hand would be an Broadway str8, and other more probable raising hands are hidden trips, big 2 pair, or a big pair and a flush draw. Also keep in mind that your 6th st. card really looks like a blank, so your raise is probably not going to scare anyone who wasn't scared by your already menacing board on 5th. So when you raise 6th then bet the river it looks like your are just betting the hand that you made on 5th with no improvement. In this example the suited 7 that you caught actually hurts your bluffing ability because it makes it more likely that you were just semi bluff raising with a pair and a 4 flush, so you might just get a defensive check call on the river. Thus you should actually be more apt to raise 6th as a bluff when it looks unlikely that you are drawing to a str8 or flush.

Now compare this to a call on 6th, which means that you at least have a draw to beat 9s up and a raise on the river which implies that you have hit your draw. Now there is a huge range of hands that you could be raising with that can beat a measly 2 pair. You might have hit a gutshot str8, a back door flush, or made trips (or even just made As up). Now if you have an opponent who will think instead of just giving you a reflex call it is extremely hard to call with just 2 pair because from his prespective there are literally zero legit hands that you would be raising with that he can beat, and seems unlikely that you are bluffing since his pair on board implies he is strong. (Beware, I would guess that over half of the players in this game will give you a reflex call, but given the large pot size your river bluff only has to work just over 20% of the time to be profitable).

This is a situation that comes fairly often in 7stud, where your opponents obvious strength makes it actually easier to bluff him. A similar situation would be to bluff raise someone with a 4 flush on board because it is unlikely that you will get called down unless they actually have the flush...this can often be more effective than just calling him down *hoping* he doesn't have the flush, only to get beat by a bigger 2 pair or baby trips. Keep in mind that this kind of play is pretty much useless at all limits other than 20/40 or 30/60 online, unless you have very specific knowledge of your opponents, because most playeres at lower limits will auto call when they have gotten this deep in a the hand, EVEN IF THEY ARE SURE THEY ARE BEAT.

I hope this helps to clear up the reasoning behind what is only touched on in the last paragraph of page 96 of 7CSFAP. Note that the last sentance of this paragraph implies that you should actually follow your line of play and raise on 6th. I think that verus the average 15/30 to 30/60 player in a LIVE game this is actually correct because these limits are populated by tight passive players (at least in Atlantic City where the average age of stud players is about 50) who would almost always just check call the river with 2 pair when one pair is on board, thus you have to get the raise in on 6th to make the river bet believable. Online I have found that the players tend to be younger and more agressive, and will often times unthinkingly get caught up pushing the bet button as fast as they can. (Suprisingly, they are often times CORRECT in making these thin value bets instead of check calling because frequently someone with a big pair will not be able to release their hand for 1 more bet on the river (but will check if checked to), and even if they do improve to 2 big pair they will almost never raise (and will bet if checked to). Thus the agro player makes additional money when they have the best hand and loses the same amount with the worst hand. The time to not make this bet is when you are against a tough player, in say the pokerstars 30/60 game, who you fear might raise with a big 2 pair on the river or bluff raise, thus forcing you into the hard-to-call situation described above.) I would love to get Ray Zee's comments on my interprutation of this section of the book...anyone think I should post this discussion on 6th and 7th street raising as its own thread in order to get such a response?

Thanks,
Carlos