Admit You Don't Believe in Miracles

[Scotch78]

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and I guess that means you?)

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Lol, no, I'm agnostic and wasn't even raised Christian.

Scott

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and I guess that means you?)

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Lol, no, I'm agnostic and wasn't even raised Christian.

Scott

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Fair enough. You've stated that my claims add nothing, but that is not even a logical refutation of my position, which no one seems too willing to do.
If you acknoweldge god is infinite and all powerful, tell me how you then can claim to know or surmise anything else about Him or religion from then on.

[Scotch78]

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but that is not even a logical refutation of my position

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I explained why your first two assumptions do not hold up, and until you make them acceptable your conclusion cannot be debated intelligently.

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If you acknoweldge god is infinite and all powerful, tell me how you then can claim to know or surmise anything else about Him or religion from then on.

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I make no such claims, so I can't really answer your question. I will say this however, once you grant that god is infinite and omnipotent, you have opened the door for other claims. How do you know that god is infinite and omnipotent? Whatever your answer, one can then admit god's benevolence, omniscience, etc. by the same means that his infinitude and omnipotence were established.

Scott

[bobman0330]

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Believers claim God has done miracles--that is things which are beyond the bounds of logic and science.

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There's your problem. Miracles are things outside of the bounds of science, not logic.

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but that is not even a logical refutation of my position

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I explained why your first two assumptions do not hold up, and until you make them acceptable your conclusion cannot be debated intelligently.

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If you acknoweldge god is infinite and all powerful, tell me how you then can claim to know or surmise anything else about Him or religion from then on.

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I make no such claims, so I can't really answer your question. I will say this however, once you grant that god is infinite and omnipotent, you have opened the door for other claims. How do you know that god is infinite and omnipotent? Whatever your answer, one can then admit god's benevolence, omniscience, etc. by the same means that his infinitude and omnipotence were established.

Scott

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That is what is perfect about the question. It shows that the believer mindset is circular. If they have knowledge of god's complete and ultimate power, that very knowledge becomes suspect. An ultimately powerful being can bend time, reverse the laws of nature and simply do as It pleases. So everything "I" claim to know becomes moot. Including that basic assumption.
-g

[Scotch78]

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Miracles are things outside of the bounds of science, not logic.

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Lol, not only is this also not an accepted definition of "miracle", but it pretty much excludes every alleged miracle.

Scott

[Scotch78]

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they have knowledge of god's complete and ultimate power, that very knowledge becomes suspect

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It is absolutely crucial to diffentiate between a belief that god is X and knowledge that god is X. Your argument requires the latter, but the former is more common among theists.

Scott

PS ALL knowledge is suspect, even logic.

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they have knowledge of god's complete and ultimate power, that very knowledge becomes suspect

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It is absolutely crucial to diffentiate between a belief that god is X and knowledge that god is X. Your argument requires the latter, but the former is more common among theists.

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It amounts to the same thing. If you simply "believe" that god is X, that makes it merely likely. This admits room for doubt. If you KNOW god is X (X being all-powerful) than your knowledge becomes worthless.
Either way you are admitting that you do not know. That is all I am trying to get out of these Theists. They refuse to admit this because of obvious reasons.

-g

[Scotch78]

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It amounts to the same thing

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No, it is absolutely crucial to differentiate between the two because there is a world of significance in that small difference.

Scott

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It amounts to the same thing

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No, it is absolutely crucial to differentiate between the two because there is a world of significance in that small difference.

Scott

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Taking that quote out of context negates WHY I said it. It amounts to the same thing in terms of what I am trying to get out of the conversation, which is the acknowledgement from believers that they do not in fact KNOW what they claim to KNOW. Once room for doubt has been exposed you can theoretically move on to HOW to deal with it.

-g