Loose passive games - call or raise?

[Pot-A]

My regular game has loose preflop conditions where 4-6 people regularly see the flop.

Pretty normal in my neck of the woods.

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

OK, so in this case you want to raise from early position with big cards but just call from late position. And make sure you check-raise the flop (if possible) when you hit so all those pesky chasers pay full price.

They ignore pot odds with a four-flush or open-ended straight draw and will call you down to the river.

Ahhhh, what a wonderfull game. All you really need to do is get out your calculator and figure out whether you should check/call, bet/raise, or fold. Make sure you bet, bet, bet, when you have a nice flop.

Oh, and never, ever, bluff. What would be the point? In all that chasing somebody's likely to have caught a pair or two, so they'll call you.

Also, they tend to be callers unless they have a made hand. And they also love to sandbag when they do have it. It is very tough to put most of them on a hand.

What you have to figure out here is whether or not they fold on the river when they don't make a hand. The more likely it is they'll call your value bet on the river with a weak hand, the more you should bet for value. If they tend to fold on the river when they don't have anything, you need to have a stronger hand than normal to bet the river.

I don't worry too much about sandbaggers. When I used to play the small games I noticed most people do it too often, so they give you a chance to redraw cheaply.

As far as putting people on a hand... well, that's common in the lower limits. Not just because they slow-play too much, but also because they often bet or raise when it's obvious somebody else has a better hand. And they tend to bluff too much. I've played in games where I pretty much ignored everyone else's action and made "this is a good hand so I'll call" decisions.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
Hmm... a still a little confused. Raising with painted, suited cards in LP makes it more expensive for me to see the flop with what I think is a drawing hand. So doesn't that ruin my implied odds?

I can see the limping with the unsuited painted cards though, *if* I can't raise anyone out. But then, should I play them at all in LP with many callers?

Guess what I'm trying to figure out is, "How many callers is ideal for the unsuited vrs. the suited variants?"

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. Suppose for a minute the game was flat betting, with no doubling of the limit on the end. What would you reccomend for suited and unsuited paint? Just curious. I have to play in Colorado mostly these days.

[tewall]

Very nice post. A couple of comments.

The comment is that one reason not to raise is to keep the pot size small to maximize the mistakes chasers make on the flop and onwards. One the other hand, it makes sense to get more money in when you have the best of it. So you're sacrificing in making a small mistake early to capitalize on larger mistakes later.

Your point about raising with a hand like JTs late is well taken. You could also raise in MP and most like get many callers, especially if there's been several limpers in before you, but the hand will be more difficult to play than in late position. The drawing hands become more playable in late position not just because you have a better idea of how many opponents will be playing but because they are easier to play.

Regarding the flush you write (paraphrasing) " a lot of these people will never lay down a 4 flush, even if it's not to the nuts and there's a lot of action." It's hard to see laying down a 4 flush, unless the board is paired. The fact that it's not to the nuts doesn't matter. A flush losing to another flush is too rare to worry about and the action can be coming from many types of hands other than higher flush draws.

[sucka]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
it makes sense to get more money in when you have the best of it. So you're sacrificing in making a small mistake early to capitalize on larger mistakes later

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I know that I am going to outplay most of my opponents post-flop and thus, this is usually an easy decision for me to make (to raise here). I know what hands I'm trying to hit and I'm not going to chase a born loser just because the pot got big - by my own doing.

Sure, a big pot pre-flop minimizes the number of mistakes that the other (bad) players will make - however, while their mistake may not be mathematically incorrect it's still incorrect and the investment here, IMHO, outweighs the return as most of these players will call regardless of the pot size. So, might as well raise it up! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
A flush losing to another flush is too rare to worry about and the action can be coming from many types of hands other than higher flush draws

[/ QUOTE ]

True...true... Just making a point. I tried to remember the last time I laid an open ender or 4 flush down on the flop and can't seem to remember. [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

Tis' true that flush over flush occurs so rarely that you cant scare yourself out of it - but it's always funny to me how many players will call 3 bets with a baby flush. It normally doesn't take long, btw, to figure out who the "But they were sooted!!" players are. When the 3 to a flush comes - get ready...

[SoBeDude]

Hi Pot-A and thanks for your great response. Let me ask a few questions though:

A preflop raise from early/UTG will push out most players, but the limpers will all call a second bet if the raise comes from late position.

OK, so in this case you want to raise from early position with big cards but just call from late position. And make sure you check-raise the flop (if possible) when you hit so all those pesky chasers pay full price.

Why would I not want to raise from late to get maximum value from my big cards? If I raise and get 5 callers I'm getting 5:1 on my preflop money if I hit a hand.

I find I make no money with my big hands when I raise and get one caller, on the flop I bet and they fold or call one bet then fold the turn. but if they stay in they'll just call so its still not a big pot but I lose a fair number of those. so I lose multiple bets when I raise pre-flop from early and lose, but only win a few, maybe 2-3 bets when I win.

Ahhhh, what a wonderfull game. All you really need to do is get out your calculator and figure out whether you should check/call, bet/raise, or fold. Make sure you bet, bet, bet, when you have a nice flop.

I'd love to see the rules for my calculator telling when to bet/call/raise/etc. please tell me what to read. I've read HEPFAP and its not that cut and dry.

Good point on the river card. I had to really think it through but it makes sense. They won't call if they missed a draw, but will call with hands even if marginal.

One thing I need to learn to do is lay down a good hand when I get check-raised on the turn-river. I'm beat 90% of the time that happens. the other 10% I just have a better hand, its never a bluff on their part.

Thanks again for your input!

-Scott

[sucka]

You can raise from late position with your big cards - and in fact, I encourage you to do so in many cases. LP raises in an already multi-way pot are simply to get a big fat pot for you. You most likely have the best of it, so get some money in there and see how things go. I think what he was trying to say is that with many limpers in already a LP raise from you will simply tie the 'chasers' to the pot. This isn't such a horrible thing - especially if you spike a hand. However, it's much more difficult to check-raise, or semi-bluff anyone out of the pot if you 'sort of' hit and your overall chances at the pot decrease in these types of situations.

For example:

You get 5 or 6 limpers behind you and you are in LP with KQo. Raising here isn't going to get anyone to fold as they are already in for 1 bet and I guarantee everyone will call one more. You probably have the best hand - but could be up against a pocket pair or two and perhaps an Ax. Not raising here allows you to trap players if you flop a a great draw or a monster hand like top 2 pair for additional bets as you don't give your hand away by raising pre-flop. The flop may also give you the opportunity to semi-bluff a hand that makes you a 3 flush with 2 overcards for example. In an unraised multi-way pot in LP you might be able to raise a MP or LP bettor and thin the field out a little and get it heads up or even win the pot right there. In short, in this smaller pot you make it more incorrect for players to cold-call your 2 bets than if it you had doubled the pot size preflop with a raise.

If you had raised pre-flop you are going to have a much more difficult time doing anything other than making a winning hand to take the pot. Anyone with any type of draw from bottom pair with an overcard to 3 to a big flush with overcards, etc... is going to stay in to draw against you as the pot has become to big for them to fold.

Of course, you'll always have the players who won't fold regardless of the size of the pot - against them you simply have to show down the best hand (or at least a better hand then what they have) to take the pot.

So, basically whether or not you choose to raise it up from LP is entirely up to you. There are arguments for both options and both are valid. In fact, in HEPFAP there is a section on playing in loose games that describes this exact dilemma.

[bernie]

i raise quite a bit in LP with suited hands...

think of it this way....what hands, given the situation and your in LP are you going to raise with? how narrow is your range?

there is a deception factor also that you can add into the equation.....along with buying the button which is also another good factor to consider...

if more than say, 2 limpers...thats 3+ in front, im generally not raising off suiteds. because you can figure at least another caller behind you...making it a very possible 5 way pot. but id be much more inclined to raise the suiteds....suiteds are my option hands usually....

cya

b

[Ed Miller]

Raising with painted, suited cards in LP makes it more expensive for me to see the flop with what I think is a drawing hand. So doesn't that ruin my implied odds?

Ok, AA... at this point I don't really understand where you are coming from. I'm talking about raising with a hand like AJs and just limping with a hand like AJo. I hope it's clear that AJs is strictly a better hand than AJo... AJs is not a "drawing hand" any more than AJo. It just has an extra way to win. That extra way to win is worth a lot... and turns a moderate holding into a very strong holding. Hands like 76s and 22 rely on implied odds to be profitable. Hands like AJs rule the Holdem universe and are worth lots of money.

I can see the limping with the unsuited painted cards though, *if* I can't raise anyone out. But then, should I play them at all in LP with many callers?

If you are playing in a game where your opponents have low starting hand requirements, then your KJo hand will be significantly better than what your opponents start with and is definitely worth a play in late position for one bet. On the other hand, in a game where your opponents have high starting hand requirements (on the order of your own) and there are four limpers to you, then KJo may no longer be profitable... it may easily be dominated by a hand like AJo or KQo... and even if it isn't dominated, it simply isn't getting the preflop equity in this game that it was in the looser game. Even in this scenario, though, the suited versions of these hands are still big hands, and you should raise with them.

In a flat betting structure, big cards... suited and offsuit... go up in value because the implied odds hands (medium suited connectors and small pairs) can no longer extract as much from you when they hit on the end.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi MajorKong,
Hope you aren't insulted. The openeing sentance sounded a little peaved. I wasn't on the attack. I'm an HE dummy.

When I say AJs is a drawing hand, I mean to say you are primarily trying to hit the straight or flush, true? But with AJo the primary expectation is to hit a large pair. Other posters have characterized it that way. So I've seen folks say "Raise AJo for protection" but "limp with AJs to have lots of callers".

So when you say to raise with AJs, I'm thinking it costs me more to see the flop. Something I'm guessing I don't want with a flush or straight draw. I was thinking I want to see the flop a cheaply as possible if I were to look at these two hands as others have suggested.

I believe you are telling me that AJs and the like are large enough not to need implied odds?

Which brings me to a question. All the no-foldem simulations out there show that AA wins 3 out of 10 against a full table and about 80% of the time heads up.

Why would I want to raise with AA ever then? 30% of 10 callers is 3... 80% of 1 caller is .80. Seems the long term best EV is to simple call to the end. I know that goes against every word ever written. But it seems mathematically correct. Any idea why the discrepancy?

Getting back to the AJs example then, why would I want to raise folks out? Or is it that I really want them to call?

Thanks for the tips on the Flat Bet game. I learned as a stud player in Vegas. So my whole prism on the game is Mirage/Bellagio/MGM Grand etc. Stud games. 1/20 and below. I'm pursuing HE for the sake of game selection. Where I'm stuck now (Colorado) there's maybe 2 games of 1-5 stud going at any time. And even in Vegas there were *always* more HE games going. So anyway, the few times I've gone up to Blackhawk and played HE I don't do so well. Have to fix that, or not play. After all the Kelly Criteria rule is, "If you don't have an edge, don't play!".

:-)

Anyway, to summarize, I think you're telling me that the middle suited connectors and small pairs are the "implied odds" hands. Where as the painted-suited hands don't rely on implied odds.

Just want to give what you've written the same effort that went into writing it.

Sincerely,
AA

P.S. No argument that AJs is the better of the two.

By the way, why wouldn't a hand like AJs actually "like" implied odds?

Seems to be a lot more grey areas to consider in HE than Stud!

[Ed Miller]

I'm not insulted at all... I just didn't understand your thought process... that's why I said that I didn't know where you were coming from. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

When I say AJs is a drawing hand, I mean to say you are primarily trying to hit the straight or flush, true? But with AJo the primary expectation is to hit a large pair.

Ok.. you have to stop thinking about "primary expectations" because I think it gets you into trouble. AJs has all the power of AJo... and then some... it can make a flush as well. Flopping top pair with AJs is just as strong as flopping top pair with AJo. AJs just gives you an extra way to win. That extra way to win is the difference between a hand that is playable for profit (AJo) and a big hand that is worth a lot of money (AJs). You raise with AJs because it is such a good hand that you want to get more of your opponent's money into the pot. This is the same reason you raise with AA. It is such a good hand that you want to get as much money into the pot as possible. With either of these hands, you'd like lots of people to be calling your raises.

The reasons people sometimes suggest to limp-reraise with big suited Aces from early position is that often early position raises do thin the field. You would rather be playing AJs against six opponents with worse hands than yours than against two or three. The point of limping is to deceive your opponents and entice them in with their marginal hands. If you don't fully understand the concept... then this is my suggestion to you... just open-raise with these hands. Chances are, people will be playing too loosely in your game, and they will go ahead and call your raise anyway. Furthermore, in Colorado, they will be probably making an even bigger mistake because they will be calling raises sometimes with "implied odds" hands that have gone down in value due to the structure.

As for why AJs wouldn't "like" implied odds... well, in some ways it does. The flush-making component of it does like implied odds... but the big pair component doesn't. And in the end, the value of this hand is so large that you just want others to be paying to play against a quality hand like yours. Let me compare it to a stud hand (though I have very little stud experience). Say your hand is (A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] )Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . This is a big hand... a huge hand if your opponents' door cards are all lower than a Q and hearts are very live. In some ways it is an "implied odds" hand... but you'd still want to play it aggressively because you have so many ways to win. If you raise and reraise with it on 3rd street, your opponents that call will likely be doing so as underdogs. Thus, any additional raises you put in make you money.