empire 55r JJ facing raise - Page 2

#1 12-09-2005, 10:59 PM

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So you check, a king comes, and MP1 bets. He either has QQ or TT, with a slight but significant chance of AK/air.

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This has to be too specific. Everyone checked the flop and the board paired the turn; he definitely does this with AQ/AJ a good % of the time, and probably does it almost every time with AQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], AJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Rizen · #2 12-09-2005, 02:13 PM

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I really don't think you can flat call here because you're giving up way too many chips when someone else raises behind you, and you have two players left to act

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there aren't that many made hands that SB is going to check twice. i think he needs to have K9/99/KK/22 to take that line with something strong. similarly i thought MP3 was pretty much giving up on the hand by checking behind on a coordinated flop.

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If this line is correct, wouldn't a push be better than a call?? I'm not necessarily saying you should fold (although I did say that I would probably fold), but I think if you're going to put any more chips into this pot, it should really be all of them. There are a lot of river cards that look pretty bad for your hand, and I'd hate to get outplayed on the river for this many chips. Also, you left out part of my paragraph on that quote, which says I wouldn't mind pushing there either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm a big fan of putting the tough decisions on your opponent. I think calling here puts the tough decisions on you (either because you get popped on the turn, or because of the 15ish river cards you're not going to want to see). I'd like your line a lot better if you were confident you'd be HU in position on the river, but without some read that isn't indicated in this post, I really don't think you can reasonably expect that.

-Rizen

Shameless plug for my poker blog:

http://rizenpoker.blogspot.com

schwza · #3 12-09-2005, 04:42 PM

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I really don't think you can flat call here because you're giving up way too many chips when someone else raises behind you, and you have two players left to act

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there aren't that many made hands that SB is going to check twice. i think he needs to have K9/99/KK/22 to take that line with something strong. similarly i thought MP3 was pretty much giving up on the hand by checking behind on a coordinated flop.

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If this line is correct, wouldn't a push be better than a call?? I'm not necessarily saying you should fold (although I did say that I would probably fold), but I think if you're going to put any more chips into this pot, it should really be all of them. There are a lot of river cards that look pretty bad for your hand, and I'd hate to get outplayed on the river for this many chips.

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my thinking was that if i pushed, the odds were very low i was going to get called by a worse hand (thinking back on it, i think that the pfr might find a call with something like TT/98/88) so i would be basically semi-bluffing all-in with 2 outs, with 3 opp's still in the pot. i'd be basically turning my hand into 22. i figured since i didn't like a 22 push, a JJ push is wrong.

i thought a call was good because it was likely i'd end up HU in position on the river, and i rated to have the best hand on the turn. in retrospect, i think a fold is probably best with so many people in the pot and the fact that i can't call a reasonable river bet, but i think it's pretty close.

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Also, you left out part of my paragraph on that quote, which says I wouldn't mind pushing there either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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yeah, i'm a big fan of selective journalism.

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I'm a big fan of putting the tough decisions on your opponent. I think calling here puts the tough decisions on you (either because you get popped on the turn, or because of the 15ish river cards you're not going to want to see).

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this is one of those poker cliches i hate... putting someone to a tough decision doesn't have any value in itself, and i think it's way overused as a rationale for one play over another.

as much as i hate talking about it, i'm putting villain to a tougher decision by calling, imo. if i push, villain insta-calls his Kx hands, insta-folds his draws, and has to think precisely on AA, QQ, TT, 88, 9x. not very tough. it saves me from having to make a decision on the river, but i also don't see saving myself from that mental stress as a goal.

if i call and the river is a brick, villain has to has a tough decision whether to continue a bluff, or else whether to bet vs c/r. if a draw gets there, he has similar decisions to make. when i bet out of position and get flat called, that's usually when i know i'm going to have a hard decision on the next street.

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I'd like your line a lot better if you were confident you'd be HU in position on the river, but without some read that isn't indicated in this post, I really don't think you can reasonably expect that.

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yeah, i didn't really mind SB coming along because i figured it'd be very tough for him to bluff into the two of us, but having MP3 behind me was pretty lame.

schwza · #4 12-09-2005, 02:04 PM

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FWIW I also don't hate a push PF

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ugh... push 11k to win 1700? it's going to fold out TT and leave me up against only bigger pairs and AK. i may as well have 55 to make that play. i think about 8k is my upper limit for a pushing stack.

Rizen · #5 12-09-2005, 02:16 PM

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FWIW I also don't hate a push PF

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ugh... push 11k to win 1700? it's going to fold out TT and leave me up against only bigger pairs and AK. i may as well have 55 to make that play. i think about 8k is my upper limit for a pushing stack.

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Not advocating it, but I don't hate it either. Adding 15% to your stack is never a bad thing, and while I can't speak for this particular tournament, I've been called by less than TT there because everyone wants to think you have AK when you push like that. I do think calling is the superior play here given your stack, but I don't hate pushing either.

-Rizen

Shameless plug for my poker blog:

http://rizenpoker.blogspot.com

Sam T. · #6 12-09-2005, 12:37 PM

Yuck. "JJ is not the nuts, JJ is not the nuts, JJ is not the nuts."

I don't like a re-raise, simply because a three-bet will make your tummy hurt. Shorter it's an easy push, taller you can re-raise and see what happens, but in this case, I think I call and take a flop.

If I flop an overpair I probably come over the top of many c-bets. If he's on a bigger overpair, well that's life. But I overplay pockets way too much.

tripp0807 · #7 12-09-2005, 12:44 PM

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Yuck. "JJ is not the nuts, JJ is not the nuts, JJ is not the nuts."

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Neither is KK or QQ or AK. You don't win tournaments by sitting around waiting for the nuts. A double up is huge here.

Sam T. · #8 12-09-2005, 12:59 PM

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Yuck. "JJ is not the nuts, JJ is not the nuts, JJ is not the nuts."

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Neither is KK or QQ or AK. You don't win tournaments by sitting around waiting for the nuts. A double up is huge here.

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I agree completely, but facing a raise JJ is significantly worse than KK, and more than a little worse than QQ. If we put the EP raiser on a pretty tight range, there are eighteen combinations that have us crushed (AA-QQ), and twenty-four with which we are a coin-flip (AK-AQ), and a few more that we have crushed (AJ, 99-TT). Compare these numbers with QQ, KK and AK.

Just my two cents, but I think JJ is a whole lot closer to TT than QQ.

ansky451 · #9 12-09-2005, 12:51 PM

I love taking a flop in this spot. He is in a real crappy position, and he will likely be C-betting any flop. When he bets the flop I'm probably only giving up if its ace high. Even king or queen high I may still be willing to go broke.

schwza · #10 12-09-2005, 12:58 PM

ok, i called.

MP3 (t23462)
SB (t10515) 9415 left
MP1 (t17125) 16025
Hero (t11130) 10030

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises to t1100, Hero calls t1100, MP3 calls t1100, 2 folds, SB calls t900, 1 fold.

Flop: (t4800) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero