The definitive post on 22s v 33s (with some comments on 55s)

[skipperbob]

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beefy,

I must have missed the 'what comprises a definitive post' memo....b/c while this may be helpful and I like seeing you put your thoughts down....it's far from definitive. Plus, it's mainly regurgitation from what Irieguy has thought about in the past (many months ago) and doesn't even include what IMO are the biggest insights/differences.

Yugoslav

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Don't get your panties in a bunch [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] We all cut Beef some slack....He's mentally-ill, You know [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[fluorescenthippo]

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I see far too many good players pushing junk utg when they are short. For example, at t1100 with the blinds at 150/300 utg, I will frequently see players shove any two. This is a huge mistake

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I agree. I see that a lot on this forum too. Otherwise great players would rather push junk UTG than let the blinds go through them. fwiw, I HATE pushing junk UTG.

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yea i gotta work on this too. i think this was a big problem for me when i jumped to the 55s because they arent as tight on the bubble. at the 22s i would always push crap utg in the right situation because they never call enough.

[ilya]

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For example, at t1100 with the blinds at 150/300 utg, I will frequently see players shove any two. This is a huge mistake as you will have 650 left after you clear the blinds (if you don't pick up anything playable in the blinds.)

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if you're talking about 4-6 handed sorts of situations, I really disagree with you. I guess 7+ handed I can see folding trash.

[johnnybeef]

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if you're talking about 4-6 handed sorts of situations, I really disagree with you. I guess 7+ handed I can see folding trash.

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Care to expand? I proved my theory.

[ilya]

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if you're talking about 4-6 handed sorts of situations, I really disagree with you. I guess 7+ handed I can see folding trash.

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Care to expand? I proved my theory.

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Well, it's true that you will still have 650 left after going through the blinds in the example you give. However, that 650 amounts to just a tiny bit over 2xbb, leaving you with no FE whatsoever. Not only will the pot often be raised in front of you, but even if it's not, you'll often still have to win a showdown just to survive. It's true that you may pick up a better hand in the next orbit, but even if you push & win, you'll still have only slightly more than you did when you folded. There's also an opportunity cost to folding...if you get called & win, you will have a pretty big stack & the greater number of profitable opportunities that come with it. If everyone folds, you will have FE even after paying the blinds, and stand to win a lot more if you pick up a good hand & get called.

Since so much of it comes down to FE, I like folding much more if you're almost sure you'll get called anyway.

[ilya]

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if you're talking about 4-6 handed sorts of situations, I really disagree with you. I guess 7+ handed I can see folding trash.

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Care to expand? I proved my theory.

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Well, it's true that you will still have 650 left after going through the blinds in the example you give. However, that 650 amounts to just a tiny bit over 2xbb, leaving you with no FE whatsoever. Not only will the pot often be raised in front of you, but even if it's not, you'll often still have to win a showdown just to survive. It's true that you may pick up a better hand in the next orbit, but even if you push & win, you'll still have only slightly more than you did when you folded. There's also an opportunity cost to folding...if you get called & win, you will have a pretty big stack & the greater number of profitable opportunities that come with it. If everyone folds, you will have FE even after paying the blinds, and stand to win a lot more if you pick up a good hand & get called.

Since so much of it comes down to FE, I like folding much more if you're almost sure you'll get called anyway.

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i would like to hear your thoughts on why you disagree.

[johnnybeef]

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i would like to hear your thoughts on why you disagree.

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I have 3 reasons.

1. Results. I played about 7-8k sngs in which I open shoved any time I had 3-5 bb. I have played about 2k sngs in which I play patiently through the blinds (provided that they are big.) My results playing the latter have been much better.

2. It is relatively easy to pick off. If I notice that a solid player who is short shoves utg, I will call with a very liberal range. I can say that 7/10 times, they are not holding what they are supposed to.

3. Just because you dont have 3 bb doesn't mean that you don't have FE. We have all been in situations in which we have 2 bb, but the bb has 3 bb. He isn't going to be calling with a wide range here all too often.

For the most part, I used to play like you, but Rojosox and I had a conversation over AIM, and it has served me well. Another thing to consider is that many fishies have something that I like to call bassakwardseliminitus. In other words, instead of properly working on stealing from the mid stacks, they bully the short stacks with nothing because they think that the goal is eliminating opponents. Essentially, getting 2:1 with T3 against 78 is a beautiful situation.

[Degen]

care to make a guess at attainable 4-tabling in sets ROI possibilities these days for each of them?

*lets assume a better than above average 2p2er but not an uber pokergod etc.

6 months ago i'd peg these at 20%+ and 15%+ respectively

[johnnybeef]

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care to make a guess at attainable 4-tabling in sets ROI possibilities these days for each of them?

*lets assume a better than above average 2p2er but not an uber pokergod etc.

6 months ago i'd peg these at 20%+ and 15%+ respectively

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Tough to determine. Irieguy had the advantage of coaching a ton of players, I have only coached about 6 or 7, and most have been at or below the 22s. Furthermore, I don't know much about their stats.