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#11
10-02-2005, 09:29 PM
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Re: 15/30 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Folding the turn is definitely the right play with no reads, I also think you should not of capped the flop, as a check 3 bet on this board usually spells doom. The minute i read that the guy checked 3 bet the flop I put him on a set, as I dont think most players would do this with J9 or 97 against 2 opponents out of position. If there was a flush draw on the flop, then I think you should call down since it may be possible that the villain has a 12 outer or more, flush draw + straight draw or flush draw and a pair type hand. [/ QUOTE ] So if you didn't cap the flop, what would your plan on the turn be? [/ QUOTE ] My plan would be to fold the turn unimproved. Are you suggesting that capping the flop and folding the turn is better than just calling the 3 bet and folding the turn? [/ QUOTE ] <font color="yellow"> </font> it's far better and it's not close 
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#12
10-02-2005, 09:42 PM
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Re: 15/30 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Folding the turn is definitely the right play with no reads, I also think you should not of capped the flop, as a check 3 bet on this board usually spells doom. The minute i read that the guy checked 3 bet the flop I put him on a set, as I dont think most players would do this with J9 or 97 against 2 opponents out of position. If there was a flush draw on the flop, then I think you should call down since it may be possible that the villain has a 12 outer or more, flush draw + straight draw or flush draw and a pair type hand. [/ QUOTE ] So if you didn't cap the flop, what would your plan on the turn be? [/ QUOTE ] My plan would be to fold the turn unimproved. Are you suggesting that capping the flop and folding the turn is better than just calling the 3 bet and folding the turn? [/ QUOTE ] <font color="yellow"> </font> it's far better and it's not close [/ QUOTE ] Given the flop action, capping is clearly spewing in my opinion. A check/3bet on a board with no flush draw almost always means the villain can beat an overpair. The only reason to cap here is if the hero has a specific read on the villain, but in this example the hero has no relevant information on the villain. So capping here against an unknown is simply throwing money away.
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#13
10-02-2005, 10:51 PM
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Re: 15/30 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Folding the turn is definitely the right play with no reads, I also think you should not of capped the flop, as a check 3 bet on this board usually spells doom. The minute i read that the guy checked 3 bet the flop I put him on a set, as I dont think most players would do this with J9 or 97 against 2 opponents out of position. If there was a flush draw on the flop, then I think you should call down since it may be possible that the villain has a 12 outer or more, flush draw + straight draw or flush draw and a pair type hand. [/ QUOTE ] So if you didn't cap the flop, what would your plan on the turn be? [/ QUOTE ] My plan would be to fold the turn unimproved. Are you suggesting that capping the flop and folding the turn is better than just calling the 3 bet and folding the turn? [/ QUOTE ] <font color="yellow"> </font> it's far better and it's not close [/ QUOTE ] Given the flop action, capping is clearly spewing in my opinion. A check/3bet on a board with no flush draw almost always means the villain can beat an overpair. The only reason to cap here is if the hero has a specific read on the villain, but in this example the hero has no relevant information on the villain. So capping here against an unknown is simply throwing money away. [/ QUOTE ]Shhhhhhhhhhh
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#15
10-02-2005, 11:29 PM
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Re: 15/30 KK
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how the ace changes much. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this and think that, given the probability that one of your opponents does not hold an ace, you probably have effective odds for a call down. And in what Party 15 game does a flop 3-bet mean better than top pair? I would estimate it to mean that about 10% of the time.
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#16
10-02-2005, 11:48 PM
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Re: 15/30 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't see how the ace changes much. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this and think that, given the probability that one of your opponents does not hold an ace, you probably have effective odds for a call down. And in what Party 15 game does a flop 3-bet mean better than top pair? I would estimate it to mean that about 10% of the time. [/ QUOTE ] you misread the action, we are not talking about a 3bet here, we are talking about a check/3bet for value play. There is a big difference.
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#17
10-02-2005, 11:56 PM
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Re: 15/30 KK
i CALL to river. it's very possible that one has 9-J and the other has 2 pair with 8-10. with the pot odds and implied odds i'd call to river-- even if there exists 2 pair, you can still hit trips OR catch a better 2 pair.
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#18
10-03-2005, 12:18 AM
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Re: 15/30 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I mostly posted this for the comfort in knowing I made the right play. I was torn on the turn; I thought about folding, calling and raising for a free showdown. I folded. EP1 showed down Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and E2 showed down JJ. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Folding the turn is definitely the right play with no reads, I also think you should not of capped the flop, as a check 3 bet on this board usually spells doom. The minute i read that the guy checked 3 bet the flop I put him on a set, as I dont think most players would do this with J9 or 97 against 2 opponents out of position. If there was a flush draw on the flop, then I think you should call down since it may be possible that the villain has a 12 outer or more, flush draw + straight draw or flush draw and a pair type hand. [/ QUOTE ] Westley, I'm usually a fan of your posts, but I really disagree with you here. I see the check/3bet with TPWK often in this game. In fact, I'm calling the flop 3bet and raising the turn (provided it isn't an ace). As it is (4bet/ace turn/opponent leads out, next guy calls), I am folding here. The lead out on the ace turn almost seems like he wants you to believe your ace is good. I won't believe him if I am the only one in the pot, but as is, I can fold here.
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#19
10-03-2005, 12:32 AM
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Re: 15/30 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't see how the ace changes much. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this and think that, given the probability that one of your opponents does not hold an ace, you probably have effective odds for a call down. And in what Party 15 game does a flop 3-bet mean better than top pair? I would estimate it to mean that about 10% of the time. [/ QUOTE ] you misread the action, we are not talking about a 3bet here, we are talking about a check/3bet for value play. There is a big difference. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed, there is a difference. But I don't think there is a reasonable range of hands for EP1 that shows our Hero is anywhere near a 7:1 dog here (on the Turn). Easy call down IMO.
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#20
10-03-2005, 01:54 AM
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Re: 15/30 KK
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't see how the ace changes much. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this and think that, given the probability that one of your opponents does not hold an ace, you probably have effective odds for a call down. And in what Party 15 game does a flop 3-bet mean better than top pair? I would estimate it to mean that about 10% of the time. [/ QUOTE ] you misread the action, we are not talking about a 3bet here, we are talking about a check/3bet for value play. There is a big difference. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed, there is a difference. But I don't think there is a reasonable range of hands for EP1 that shows our Hero is anywhere near a 7:1 dog here (on the Turn). Easy call down IMO. [/ QUOTE ] against the typical opponent this is an easy fold imo. This action will almost always mean a set. Against a loose agg or crazy guy this is an easy call down.
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