Easy Preflop Decision aka I'm smarter than my friend

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
The phrase "preflop calling odds" means the same to me as "marshmallow odds." Nothing.

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rare laugh out loud moment for me

[JAA]

This is an interesting point of view, but I can't say I agree. You argue that "at limit hold'em, preflop, there is no event being wagered on." Sure there is. You are wagering that the money put in the pot with your hand will show a positive expectation long-term. In order to judge this, you take into account a number of factors, including but by no means limited to:

a.)How much money you will make/action you will get if you do make a good hand (implied odds)
b.)Your risk of making a costly 2nd-best hand
c.)The immediate odds you are getting on your preflop call

I guess I'm saying that I am willing to play "a bad hand in bad position" at certain times, if the right conditions are met (i.e. I will get a lot of action after the flop if I make a miracle and will not get into trouble when I miss)

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Interesting point of view.

- Jags

[Philuva]

I don't think I agree with you here Tommy.

So you don't use the number of limpers to you if you are on the button to determine how you play a hand like 22?

Isn't that using preflop calling odds?

[JAA]

[ QUOTE ]
There's four ways to start a hand. With a good hand and good position, or a good hand and bad position, or a bad hand and good position, or a bad hand and bad position. I'm willing to play the first three, but that's it.


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There have to be exceptions. 48d is a bad hand, and the BB is bad position. But you're honestly saying that if UTG raised and everyone cold-called, you'd lay it down simply because it fits your "bad hand, bad position" criterion? I understand if you don't think 9.5:1 is enough, but theres gotta be a turning point, no?

- Jags

[Tommy Angelo]

"So you don't use the number of limpers to you if you are on the button to determine how you play a hand like 22?"

Using your example, 22 on the button ...

The only time that the number of limpers determines my action is if the number of limpers is three, four, five, six, or seven, in which cases my play is always the same, I call. If there are no limpers, or one limper, or two limpers, I call sometimes and raise sometimes, and the decision never hinges on the size of the pot.

"Isn't that using preflop calling odds?"

You tell me. Is it?


Tommy

[Tommy Angelo]

"48d is a bad hand, and the BB is bad position. But you're honestly saying that if UTG raised and everyone cold-called, you'd lay it down simply because it fits your "bad hand, bad position" criterion?"

Yes.

[Wally]

You could apply the same arguments to flop pot odds and turn pot odds and river pot odds(in a multi-way pot with a player left to act).

[Tommy Angelo]

"This is an interesting point of view, but I can't say I agree. You argue that "at limit hold'em, preflop, there is no event being wagered on." Sure there is. You are wagering that the money put in the pot with your hand will show a positive expectation long-term."

Is "wagering that the money put in the pot with your hand will show a positive expectation long-term" considered to be an "event?"

Here's another angle.

You can't have "odds" without them being "on" something. Like on a baseball game, or on a heart hitting the turn. There has to be a noun (or noun phrase) that can go after the word "odds," to tell us what it is that is being bet on, to tell us the event that will determine who wins and who loses the wager.

Here is a sentence:

I am getting 9.5:1 odds on ???.

Fill in the blank so that it makes sense. It could be "The Buckeyes," it could be "the cow jumping over the moon tonight." Just about anything that is a defined event can be bet on, with odds. In fact the mere use of the words "odds" demands that a wagered-on event be defined.

Here is another fill-in-the-blank:

At limit hold'm, if I call a raise from the big blind after one player raised and three others called and the small blind folded, I am getting 9.5:1 on ???.


Tommy

[James282]

I am getting 9.5:1 on flopping an open ended straight draw, a four flush, a flush, a straight, 2 pair, 3 of a kind, or 4 of a kind.
-James

[JAA]

[ QUOTE ]
"48d is a bad hand, and the BB is bad position. But you're honestly saying that if UTG raised and everyone cold-called, you'd lay it down simply because it fits your "bad hand, bad position" criterion?"

Yes.

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Like whoa.

- Jags