Why do we fold QTo from UTG?

You will never be playing against 9 random hands.

[BradleyT]

You're always up against 9 random hands at a 10 handed table.

[pzhon]

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You're always up against 9 random hands at a 10 handed table.

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That misses the point. You aren't sure the players with trash like 52o will limp behind you. You aren't sure a player with TT behind you won't raise. The players who see the flop will have better than average hands, particularly when weighted by the money you have to put in.

[ohnonotthat]

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That misses the point. You aren't sure the players with trash like 52o will limp behind you.

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(Though you'd obviously love it if they did).

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You are always up against 9 random hands PRE-FLOP at a 10-handed table; these simulations assume that all 9 play through to the river and do not account for post-flop bets.

- Sometimes I can't tell if they're being serious or glib.

Then there are those such as myself who can ably manage to do both simultaneously.

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"It is SO tough to be modest when you're as good as I am". [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ohnonotthat]

Ah, yet another fellow who has clearly not been to A.C. on a Friday night during the summer.

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[AaronBrown]

The problem with QTo is when it does win it usually beats only bad hands, and you're not confident of winning, so you don't get much money. T9s is more likely to win with a straight or a flush, where you might beat two pair or three of a kind; and where you could make a lot of money.

Another advantage of T9s is you will fold it on the flop unless you get a four flush, open-ended straight draw, a set or two pair. You have to stick around to the river most of the time to see if QTo wins.

I'm not saying T9s is a great hand to play, or that you never call with QTo; but suited connectors have more promise than unsuited one-gappers.

[Xhad]

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Another advantage of T9s is you will fold it on the flop unless you get a four flush, open-ended straight draw, a set or two pair.

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Not really. Not in loose limit games because of the times a giant pot forces you to peel with a weaker draw, and not in tight limit games where a shorthanded situation means your top pair, weak kicker might be good.

[AaronBrown]

Okay, let me rephrase it. You learn more from the flop with T9s than QTo.

T9s can flop a flush draw, QTo won't unless there are three suited cards on board, and even then QTo could easily be beaten if the A or K of the suit is out.

T9s can flop three different open-ended straight draws and four different straights, QTo can only flop two different OESD's and three different straights.

They hands have the same chances for full houses, sets and two pair.

T9s will usually fold if only a pair flops with nothing better. QTo can't fold those hands if it is to have any significant chance of winning the pot. If you're going to fold a pair on the flop, you should fold preflop.

[ohnonotthat]

Valid points, however it's worth noting that T-9/s can flop more than 3 different open-ended straight draws.

You're leaving out K-J-7 and Q-8-6.

The addition of two possible straights (or straight draws) does not in and of itself add significant strength to this hand; J-9/s flops fewer open-ended straight draws but is obviously playable [virtually] anywhere T-9/s is; I mention it only for those who often overlook these flops.

Double-gutshot draws are really great for business, if YOU have them; they can be as expensive as hell if your opponents hav'em though a little less so if you learn to spot the fact that one could be out.

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"The prices of the prizes are rounded off to the nearest dollar, and gift certificates do not include sales tax. Now let's meet tonight's contestants".

I don't always fold it UTG; however, you must know the table where you are playing. If the players are playing loose agressive poker and are all calling stations, I will give it a shot once in awhile, but will fold it if I don't hit something I can work with. The obvious reasons 910s is a better hand is that you have a flush draw and a str8 possibility, but it can be dangerous because often you will get beated by a higher straight. Next if you do choose Q10o from UTG, there are three hands that could have a Q that will beat you when one or both of those last two queens hit on the flop and end up being the top pair, unless you hit your 10 and sometimes even when you do, you are going to spend your stack unless you have the foresight to see that you are out kicked.

I play online for a living and can tell you that more often than not I will always fold Q10 UTG and most of the time play 109s if I can get in for the one bet. My only exception is if I am playing a 6-handed ring game then I tend to play both of them only if I can get in for one bet with the Q10 and two bets with the 109s. I will never call more than 2x the BB with either UTG at a full 6-handed game.

Hope this has helped you out with those two hands.