Ethics of being a dickhead at the poker table...

[xniNja]

I'd contend it is immoral, based on societal norms, because it is not necessary to increase +EV in the game.

[einbert]

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I'd contend it is immoral, based on societal norms, because it is not necessary to increase +EV in the game.

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So you're basically saying

Anything unncessary is wrong?
Anything society deems right is in fact right?

[xniNja]

No, that's not what I said at all. I said based on societal norms, those are the values and morals a society as a whole embodies, and because it is not a necessary or significant aspect of the game structure nor gamesmanship, it is immoral in the context of anything else seen as immoral by society, like public lewdness, or sexual harrassment.

[mike4bmp]

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Play with class. Read Greenstein, Harrington, Brunson and stay away from Hellmuth if you don't know how to play with class & still increase +EV.

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You forgot Matusow...can't stand that f---ing guy.

[xniNja]

Hey, keep reading.. I used him as his own word later on!

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The only additional factor that you'll have to take into account when calculating whether or not heckling is ethical is the chance of having your chat banned and the effect that would have on your short and long term spiritual growth.

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Got a chuckle out of that. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Piers]

If I am playing to make money, them I am playing online, in which case there is no time to be a ‘douchbag’. If I am playing live, its just entertainment, and I prefer being in a pleasant atmosphere.

It would be nice if people were not annoying pricks at the poker table. It would make playing a more enjoyable experience. But I can't control the world so I've learned to ignore their BS and just concentrate on the game. After a while their annoying crap just becomes so much background noise.

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is ANYTHING that allows us to get another 1/2 BB an hr justified, since the goal of playing poker is to make money?

[/ QUOTE ]I'm quite sure that's not the only goal of poker and any poker goal should not overshadow larger scope goals like being a good guy.

I like a little banter that might even cross the line into trash talk so long as it is good natured. Of course, good natured is a moving target, so I tend to go with what the rest of the table wants so long as it doesn't cross my personal line. No different than the way I'd act if I was invited to a friend's house for dinner and games -- with some friendly mocking is fine, with others it would be offensive.

I think guys that intentionally try to get under other peoples' skin by being a dickhead are, well, not people I'd like to associate with. In the poker world, I would put someone like Hellmuth in this category. I expect his antics are primarily an act -- I've heard bits and pieces about him being a nice guy away from the table. But, his choice to act like he does at the table tells me that he's not someone I'd like.

[hmkpoker]

Good post!

Poker played well is a means to making money. But let's go a step further than that and acknowledge that making money is a means to enjoying life (which I feel has self-evident rewards, and doesn't need to go any further).

Now let's mush this all up into a big abstract EV of some sort. Picture a 2+2er at a table, with a tight-aggressive approach to life. He's popping out 1BB/hr at his 40/80 game, but he hates it. He's not having fun, he's alienated himself, and he's miserable. Contrast with, say, a starving artist who's just barely getting by, but loves his job.

Now I won't discount that money is important; that $80/hour is why the shark plays that vicious game...but the quality of one's life is very important as well, and I would feel uncomfortable assigning value to these things.

Poker is a vicious game. I prefer playing online to playing live if there's anything significant at the table...I haven't reached the point yet where I can sit back and laugh and have comradery with others with my money on the line, and I honestly think very few people can.

When it comes to just having a good ol' time, NOT counting pot odds and outs, building a BR, and satisfying a thirst for blood, I'd rather just play a nickel-and-dime home game with friends, ignore the strategy, play wild cards, and just have a good time. Serious gaming and having fun rarely coincide, so I like to keep them as far apart as I can.