Limp-Reraise with AA/KK in EP

[BoxTree]

Regarding small pairs, Ciaffone and Reuben recommend folding 55-22 unless you're on the button in an unraised pot. Basically, they're looking to avoid the unlikely but expensive set-over-set scenario. But C&R are writing about much bigger (and presumably harder) games than the 400 NL at Commerce. So...I should still be able to show a good profit by limping with any pocket pair in EP (and using the 5/10 rule to decide whether to call a raise)?

[Rick Nebiolo]

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So...I should still be able to show a good profit by limping with any pocket pair in EP (and using the 5/10 rule to decide whether to call a raise)?

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Perhaps with the tiniest pairs you may want to be a bit more careful in situations where your extremely deep stack is exposed to a very good player with another extremely deep stack, but otherwise you want to play them if the preflop price relative to other stacks is right.

~ Rick

[BoxTree]

Okay, thanks, Rick. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Pocket deuces, here I come!

[amoeba]

people need to be less afraid of limp reraise gone wrong getting limped around. its not that bad.

its much better than raise to 5xbb, get called behind me 5 or 6 ways.

[soah]

I agree.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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people need to be less afraid of limp reraise gone wrong getting limped around. its not that bad.

its much better than raise to 5xbb, get called behind me 5 or 6 ways.

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Not sure I understand you. If your stack is let's say $700 in this game (sort of typical) and your limp reraise fails (the pot is six way for about $50) you need to be really careful postflop when all you have is an overpair. When you get postflop action it's often going to be action you don't like.

But let's say with $700 you either raise to $30 or $40 or limp reraise. If your raise gets called in five or six spots you aren't getting away from too many flops, the pot is too big (about $250) relative to your replaceable stack (in the Commerce game you can buy a max of $600 after going to the felt).

A limp reraise usually narrows the field more, but if you didn't push everything with the limp reraise you are usually pushing on the flop with your remaining chips.

Am I missing something?

~ Rick

[soah]

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Not sure I understand you. If your stack is let's say $700 in this game (sort of typical) and your limp reraise fails (the pot is six way for about $50) you need to be really careful postflop when all you have is an overpair. When you get postflop action it's often going to be action you don't like.

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Fold.

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But let's say with $700 you either raise to $30 or $40 or limp reraise. If your raise gets called in five or six spots you aren't getting away from too many flops, the pot is too big (about $250) relative to your replaceable stack (in the Commerce game you can buy a max of $600 after going to the felt).

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If you limp in and get outflopped you lose $10, or maybe $60 if you bet and fold to a raise. By raising preflop and refusing to let go of your hand, you lose $700 when you get outflopped.

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A limp reraise usually narrows the field more, but if you didn't push everything with the limp reraise you are usually pushing on the flop with your remaining chips.

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If you limp-reraise you are generally going to be putting in 20-30% of your stack preflop. No hand is correct to call you even if they get the rest of your stack 100% of the time that they outflop you. Your opponents will either correctly fold and let you take down a couple hundred dollars of dead money with no risk, or they will incorrectly chase without proper odds. You win either way.

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Am I missing something?

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Yes.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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Not sure I understand you. If your stack is let's say $700 in this game (sort of typical) and your limp reraise fails (the pot is six way for about $50) you need to be really careful postflop when all you have is an overpair. When you get postflop action it's often going to be action you don't like.

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Fold.

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IOW you might bet the flop (except atrocious flops such as JT9 two-tone) and get away from substantial action.



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But let's say with $700 you either raise to $30 or $40 or limp reraise. If your raise gets called in five or six spots you aren't getting away from too many flops, the pot is too big (about $250) relative to your replaceable stack (in the Commerce game you can buy a max of $600 after going to the felt).

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If you limp in and get outflopped you lose $10, or maybe $60 if you bet and fold to a raise. By raising preflop and refusing to let go of your hand, you lose $700 when you get outflopped.

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But how often are you going to be outflopped and drawing nearly dead (to a set) when the pot is this big (after a raise) relative to your stack? Problem of course is any reasonable sized post flop bet tends to get you pot stuck.


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A limp reraise usually narrows the field more, but if you didn't push everything with the limp reraise you are usually pushing on the flop with your remaining chips.

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If you limp-reraise you are generally going to be putting in 20-30% of your stack preflop. No hand is correct to call you even if they get the rest of your stack 100% of the time that they outflop you. Your opponents will either correctly fold and let you take down a couple hundred dollars of dead money with no risk, or they will incorrectly chase without proper odds. You win either way.

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Great point with these parameters. I need to limp-reraise a bit more, but make sure I get away from the failed attempts (since the pot is small).


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Am I missing something?

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Yes.

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Actually I know I'm missing something so it was a dumb question. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks for your input.

~ Rick

[soah]

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But how often are you going to be outflopped and drawing nearly dead (to a set) when the pot is this big (after a raise) relative to your stack? Problem of course is any reasonable sized post flop bet tends to get you pot stuck.

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This is indeed the crucial variable. And since I've never been to LA, I can't offer any estimate of how often players there will lose their stack with top pair or worse against an EP raiser. I'm not going to attempt to argue that raising AA is -EV or anything (with decent postflop skills and playing against average opponents); the debate is simply whether raising is more +EV than limping. There are a lot of variables that will impact the EV of both lines and attempting to address them all here would be futile.

One other thing... I would rather play against an opponent who will only continue past the flop if they can beat an overpair... if my opponent could have a set, two pair, or top pair, then essentially they are going to be bluffing me a certain percentage of the time which is likely to be somewhat close to the optimal bluffing frequency. Sometimes they may double me up with top pair, but they will get it all back when I am forced to pay off their set the next time.

AA wins against 4 random hands 56% of the time... once again this is leaving out a lot of variables (like the fact that on the flop you would still be ahead much more than 56% of the time) but it's still a good reminder that one pair doesn't hold up well in family pots. If you put your stack in postflop against multiple opponents with AA you are just gambling that this is one of the times that it holds up. Depending on how loose your opponents play it might be a good gamble, or it might be a bad gamble... but it's just a spot that I'd like to avoid.

[FreakDaddy]

I'm saying this as a thoughtful recommendation (hopefully it comes off that way). I'd ask yourself what are you so scared of? This is purely psycholgical at this point. Everyone knows scared money = dead money. Is there some aspect of your game you're not confident in? Work on it. Play smaller stakes. I mean, if you're enjoying how you're playing, then go with it, have fun, but from your post it doesn't sound like you're having fun. You sound overly timid and scared.