$11's Good Push or Not (6 Hands) - Page 2

jeffraider · #11 06-30-2005, 01:42 PM

Hand 1 KQs - I don't mind this that much. You're likely ahead, but the action really indicates that if you do get called you have to dodge a lot of potential bad cards, but I'd think that you were still the favourite even against two opponents. The really good news is the 360 sitting in the pot at the time of your push. That's a good sized overlay, especially if you're only playing against the two shorties. Not too shabby!

Hand 2 ATo - Boooo! You're not "forced" to play this shitty hand for a 12xBB push to steal 75 chips, which won't help you too much. Now that your stuck is chopped you're not desperate, but you are looking for places to be a favourite or at worst a coinflip. ATo isn't a favourite over a lot of the hands that will call, and your best case is a coinflip. I'd be looking for AQ+, 88+ here. Just remind yourself that it'll be very hard to steal your way back to a healthy stack, so you need to be looking to double through someone, not be dominated by someone when they call.

Hand 3 95s - Yeah, just check-fold. You're not desperate enough yet to try this, especially since it looks like a bluff.

Hand 4 66 - No question, good push.

Hand 5 K6s - Just fold preflop. No good reason to play for this pot right now. If you had this hand on the button and two people had limped however. . . PVS!

Hand 6 84o - Boooo. You may steal the pot but there is an extremely high likelyhood you'll be called. This would be better if you could be first in, and you're on the button so just fold and try to be first in with your whole stack.

GtrHtr · #12 06-30-2005, 02:13 PM

I agree in the 1500 starting stack game that this is a routine call with the blinds so low.

With an 800 chip stack to me its just bleeding off precious chips that are very important after we get through the next few levels. I am not against calling if you have the ability to play with some skill post flop and particularly having the ability to lay this hand down if required. However, look at how the hand played out. He had a drawing hand to begin with, and just got sucked deeper and deeper into the hand.

pooh74 · #13 06-30-2005, 02:28 PM

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I agree in the 1500 starting stack game that this is a routine call with the blinds so low.

With an 800 chip stack to me its just bleeding off precious chips that are very important after we get through the next few levels. I am not against calling if you have the ability to play with some skill post flop and particularly having the ability to lay this hand down if required. However, look at how the hand played out. He had a drawing hand to begin with, and just got sucked deeper and deeper into the hand.

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I admit with t800 i would need implied odds to hit at least 2pair, (trips, flush/str8 draw) to play this hand...I would not feel comfortable with top pair 6 ways. But like you said, one needs to have some post flop savvy to play this hand because of the propensity to get sucked into a losing hand. My only thing is that players need to play hands like this nonetheless when getting good odds and just because their post-flop skills need work, does not mean they should avoid it...that is backwards IMO.

But I concede the difference in starting stacks being a big deal. calling 30, then raising or calling this flop, and you're looking at AT least a 25% chunk of your starting stack gone w/o knowing where you stand in the hand...not good.

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #14 06-30-2005, 02:41 PM

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I stopped after the first hand because this hand shows prefectly a huge leak in your game.

A basic concept you need to nail down is how to change your play based on circumstances. KQs is a good hand and DEFINITELY worthy of a limp here...at a very loose passive table, maybe even a raise to isolate, to mix it up too. But, you limped and had a multiway pot with 6 PLAYERS!! There is no reason to believe you have the best had right now...raise to 180 to see where you stand perhaps...

My major point is, when you limp for 30 with 6 other players, you are not looking for TP any more to get your chips in...now you have to be mUCH more careful because ANYTHING could be out there. IF you raised PF and get one caller, TP2K becomes a great hand. On the bubble, it a pushworthy hand...but not here. You need to adjust to your surroundings and really have to not get overexcited in this situation. You will almost never get called by a worse hand and are risking your tourney on a relatively small pot relative to your stack.

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Thanks, this is good advice. I do get excited, and occasionally act w/o thinking especially if I have TP or better. I need to slow down and put my opponent on a range of hands... every time... as part of my decision making process.

As it turns out one villain was slow playing AA... he lost too, and the other had Q5 from BB and finished w/ a FH.

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #15 06-30-2005, 02:48 PM

The problem with the KQs hand is that even if I bet t180 as you suggest, if they only called my bet then the turn gave me 2 pair... how do you get away from that?... b/c 2 pair was not good enough, so in this specific hand I was potentially doomed unless I folded pre-flop or they raised me on the flop, but I will practice betting to see where I stand when I have tp in a multi-way pot.

pooh74 · #16 06-30-2005, 03:02 PM

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The problem with the KQs hand is that even if I bet t180 as you suggest, if they only called my bet then the turn gave me 2 pair... how do you get away from that?... b/c 2 pair was not good enough, so in this specific hand I was potentially doomed unless I folded pre-flop or they raised me on the flop, but I will practice betting to see where I stand when I have tp in a multi-way pot.

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I only meant raising instead of pushing...I wouldnt even raise in that spot and only MIGHT call. with a bet, call, and 3 more to act I would be so afraid of getting tangled up I might cut my losses and fold. This is why some advocate folding this hand PF...I still disagree bc of flops like Kd Ac Tc where for 60 Ill take my chances with so many outs to the BEST hand...but with 800 stacks I am not sure if the amount of good flops for me justify a limp of 30...with 1500 to start, this hand is a no brainer. I dont play party so I am at a loss as to proper early-mid PF play.

However, in any case on the flop, with 6 people in, you really need to be better than top pair to get hyper-agressive.

GtrHtr · #17 06-30-2005, 03:12 PM

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My only thing is that players need to play hands like this nonetheless when getting good odds and just because their post-flop skills need work, does not mean they should avoid it...that is backwards IMO.

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Agreed and good point. I'm just not sure that a Party SnG is the place to gain this skill.

GtrHtr · #18 06-30-2005, 03:19 PM

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The problem with the KQs hand is that even if I bet t180 as you suggest, if they only called my bet then the turn gave me 2 pair... how do you get away from that?... b/c 2 pair was not good enough, so in this specific hand I was potentially doomed unless I folded pre-flop or they raised me on the flop, but I will practice betting to see where I stand when I have tp in a multi-way pot.

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Think of it this way. 1. What are you hoping to accomplish by playing this hand? 2. What is a good flop for you if you do play it? 3. What happens if you pair your hand, say the flop is 10h, Qh, 3d? What is your play? 4. Straight possibilities. How often will you have the nut straight, without an A when you play two suited connected face cards.

On and on. Just some food for thought that goes to the point on your thoughts above.

Dr_Jeckyl_00 · #19 06-30-2005, 03:46 PM

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1. What are you hoping to accomplish by playing this hand?

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Well, I liked the flop, just not all of the post flop action. I pushed hoping to take it down

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2. What is a good flop for you if you do play it?

[/ QUOTE ] I consider this a good flop... TP w/ overcard kicker. Obviously a better flop would contain 2 cards that give me either a flush/str8 draw, or KQ or 2 K's or 2 Q's

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3. What happens if you pair your hand, say the flop is 10h, Qh, 3d? What is your play?

[/ QUOTE ] I need to bet at least 1/2 pot to give poor odds for drawing hands. I probably need to reserve my pushes for when I have decent hands AND less than 10xbb, the bubble and ITM.

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4. Straight possibilities. How often will you have the nut straight, without an A when you play two suited connected face cards.

[/ QUOTE ] Not sure how to answer this... depends on my hole cards and the board???

pooh74 · #20 06-30-2005, 03:49 PM

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The problem with the KQs hand is that even if I bet t180 as you suggest, if they only called my bet then the turn gave me 2 pair... how do you get away from that?... b/c 2 pair was not good enough, so in this specific hand I was potentially doomed unless I folded pre-flop or they raised me on the flop, but I will practice betting to see where I stand when I have tp in a multi-way pot.

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Think of it this way. 1. What are you hoping to accomplish by playing this hand? 2. What is a good flop for you if you do play it? 3. What happens if you pair your hand, say the flop is 10h, Qh, 3d? What is your play? 4. Straight possibilities. How often will you have the nut straight, without an A when you play two suited connected face cards.

On and on. Just some food for thought that goes to the point on your thoughts above.

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Good points...Not that I am any sort of pro, but I see and talk to a lot of beginners who as their biggest leak put money into a pot w/o a plan...w/o thinking FIRST, what their objective is...IF x happens, I will Y, If X happens and I Y and Z1 happens, I will...if Z2 happens, I will...

IOW, too many players will let the hand carry them along instead of the opposite. Here, our hero did in fact take control and his plan was apparently "if I hit either of my cards, regardless of the texture of the board and # of opponents, I will get my chips in"...so at least he didnt play the hand weak passively...he just had a bad plan.