SSHE Book Club Discussion - Part Two: Preflop Concepts - Page 2

Nagoo81 · #11 12-01-2004, 02:25 PM

The single thing that this book made its point well to me is about playing all pocket pairs for at least one bet (bigger pairs obviously raise). If you can limp with say, 33, and everyone limps and you hit the flop, you'll get some v v v nice action with that top pair.

Just like how Ron Popeil says to play pocket pairs: SET IT or FORGET IT!

I still am not 100% comfortable playing ATo and KJo in EP. I know they are better than average starting hands, but I need more practice before I can do so.

Jake (The Snake) · #12 12-01-2004, 02:30 PM

I think what has been said so far is all very good. Exceptions are the only troubling aspect of preflop play because otherwise, Ed spells it out very well. Thankfully, preflop exceptions will not cause you to lose much money when compared to postflop.

Nevertheless, I find that my preflop problems usually arise when I am holding premium hands and a lot of raising goes on either before or after me. This is not covered much in the book. For example, what do you guys do with AKo from the button if it has been raise twice ahead of you?

Ed Miller · #13 12-01-2004, 02:47 PM

I find that strictly following the guidelines produces a VP$IP of about 15% and a PFR of about 6%. The best players seem to have a VP$IP of 12-13% and a PFR in excess of 7.5%.

I'm not sure exactly where you got these numbers, but from what I know, the best players generally have a VP$IP more like 18-22%, not 12-13%.

As Zehn · #14 12-01-2004, 02:50 PM

I would tend to believe the folds are intentional. With ATs you have to worry about the A being dominated, you only have 1 str8t possibility, but you do have a draw to the nut flush.

With KJs you have 2 str8t possibilites, and a flush draw (but not the nuts)and a draw to discounted outs.

Additionally,in both situations someone is indicating strength via the raise and you are vulnerable to a re-raise.
If wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

Ed Miller · #15 12-01-2004, 02:50 PM

Intentional or oversight?

Basically, it's an oversight. That QJs-T9s was added at the last minute, and I will admit that it wasn't well thought-out by me. In general, I should have spent more time on the charts than I did. From my perspective it was very low priority, but I should have realized that it would be so heavily scrutinized/taken literally.

Ed Miller · #16 12-01-2004, 02:52 PM

Additionally,in both situations someone is indicating strength via the raise and you are vulnerable to a re-raise.
If wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

It is true that a hand like T9s is less vulnerable to domination than ATs. But ATs is generally SO superior to T9s that it's really hard to think of a situation (particularly in an already multiway pot) where you'd prefer T9s.

Nagoo81 · #17 12-01-2004, 03:13 PM

Can we look forward to a revised edition with corrections/additions?

Honestly, I wish the starting hands chart was more organized and explained a bit more explicitly in detail for each hand.

I hate to bring it up in this forum, but I do like Matthew Hilger's charts (as far as how they are organized). I am going to create a chart like that based on Ed's recommendations.

SheridanCat · #18 12-01-2004, 03:33 PM

Read the text, understand the concepts and apply the concepts. Forget the charts. This goes for all the 2+2 charts. The charts know nothing about the game texture, your image, etc.

Don't live by the charts. If you use the charts as a crutch, it's going to take you longer to learn the concepts.

Regards,

T

theghost · #19 12-01-2004, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Miller recommends playing A2s from MP and LP in tight games.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, and I play it there - but not from EP.

Toonces · #20 12-01-2004, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I will admit that it wasn't well thought-out by me. In general, I should have spent more time on the charts than I did. From my perspective it was very low priority, but I should have realized that it would be so heavily scrutinized/taken literally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed, in retrospect, are there any other specific recommendations that you would suggest we play differently from the chart? I know many of them are close calls, but I'm curious if there were other recommendations that you now have serious doubts about, since you suggest playing the recommendations religiously unless there are mitigating factors.