Thoughts on free will vs. determinism

[jordanx]

Well, your statement doesn't logically argue the mutual exclusiveness of free will and an impotent god, determinism and an evil god.

I think a better question would be "Are free will and determinism mutually exclusive?" as the Bible indicates that man has free will, but also hints towards determinism.

Can we have the ability to make choice, and god still know what choices we are going to make.

For instance, you have AJo and the pot is raised and re-raised pre-flop before you. Now you have the choice to fold, call or raise. If god definitively knows you are going to fold, do you still have the choice to fold? If he knows it's going to happen, it is predetermined?

[wdeadwyler]

Freewill and determinism both exist at the same time. Think of every human being as having a sort of MAXIMUM POTENTIAL. Let that potential be represented by a giant sphere. Some people, like the President of the US, have a pretty big sphere, while others, say a poor African kid whose parents are dead from AIDS, have a pretty small sphere. Free will allows for movement within this sphere of possibility, while determinism is what limits the size of the sphere. Simply put, there is freedom of choice, but some choices we do not have the power to make (or act out).

[noggindoc]

Is anyone willing to take a stab at the definition of free will? I think it would be important to the discussion.

[purnell]

This may help. From stanford.edu

[Gatto]

[ QUOTE ]

in heaven free will does not exist.


[/ QUOTE ]

Phew, then I guess I don't have to worry about wanting to get there after all.

Logically a case can be made that God is either impotent, somewhat sadistic or non-existent. Which of those it is, I leave to others to speculate. If he is all-powerful, he has the power to end human suffering, and he obviously hasn't stepped in to do that just yet.

Personally, I suspect in the grand scheme of things as far as we're concerned, he's largely just dissinterested.

God speaks, to some he says to kill, others he says to heal. Those that heal we say have devine influence, those that kill we condemn as deranged. Regardless of the value or morality of the actions so spoken to, both cases have one thing in common, it's all in their head. Everything you experience, is all in your head.

"If God did not exist, man would have to create him."

Or put another way... "Man created God in his own image."

[Zygote]

God, according to biblical religions, is still not benevolent in the free will model. In the judeo-christian model of the universe, God can comprimise our circumstances without comprimising our free will (FYI, biblical theology proves that god supposedly does this all the time). If we agree that theists characterize god as omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, then god's respect for our free will cannot be used to refute the question of why a good, all knowing and all-powerful god can allow evil.

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]
God, according to biblical religions, is still not benevolent in the free will model. In the judeo-christian model of the universe, God can comprimise our circumstances without comprimising our free will (FYI, biblical theology proves that god supposedly does this all the time). If we agree that theists characterize god as omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent, then god's respect for our free will cannot be used to refute the question of why a good, all knowing and all-powerful god can allow evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would contend that God needn't be classified as omnipotent.
It also seems that the three characteristics we are discussing are omnipotent, rational, and benevolent.
The definition of benevolence would imply that God does his best to do good in the world. I agree that God respecting our free will is no good explanation for evil.

[Zygote]

[ QUOTE ]
The definition of benevolence would imply that God does his best to do good in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

And god's best is not limited (he is omnipotent), therefore, god cannot make any excuses for failing to achieve any goal.

[wickedgoodtrader]

Here's the answer fellas. There is no free will. I'll try to explain this as quick as possible. Your brought into this world with your brain being a type of mathmatical processor. It brings in inputs from your environment then creates an output. It's very similar to the weather. Back in the day people thought the weather was "random". Now we know that if we can accurately calculate the inputs into the environment we can calculate the output which allows weathermen to predict snow and rain and sushine. If they could predict every single input for the next 20 years they could tell you what the weather would be like 20 years from now.

If I were to rewind time to the day I was born this is what would happen. I would have the exact same inputs going into my brain so the output would be the same. My brain would NEVER make a different decision. You could rewind it 100 times and my brain would react the same way under the exact same conditions. You would live life the same way every time. This means you are given only 1 path to live life and your death will alway be the same. Therefore your life is predetermined.

[BrettK]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the answer fellas. There is no free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you logically come to that decision or is it just some sort of feeling?