The Ethics of Faith

[KeysrSoze]

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while obvioulsy most christians beleive that "o, but God loves everybody", there are some of us who beleve in reformed theology and know that it is impossible that God loves everybody because he even said he hated esau in romans 9

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You reformist touchy-feely liberal. We of the true faith know the real answer:



But seriously I agree, these people who perceive their blind faith in the idiotic as an actual virtue boggles my mind.

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Your analogy between the shipbuilder's faith in his boat and a Christian's faith in god is a bit off the mark. The shipbuilder's faith has a physical manifestation; a Christian's faith does not usually manifest itself physically.

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It does: in your actions; in the way your actions affect others; in the way your ideas work into others' minds.

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these people who perceive their blind faith in the idiotic as an actual virtue boggles my mind.

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That was worth quoting because it's so true. Using logic exercises to demonstrate the absurdity of faith is futile. The faithful don't want evidence that backs up their beliefs. They don't want concrete reasons to believe. It's taught that it's somehow more noble to believe even if it's against all logic and rational.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

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Your analogy between the shipbuilder's faith in his boat and a Christian's faith in god is a bit off the mark. The shipbuilder's faith has a physical manifestation; a Christian's faith does not usually manifest itself physically.

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It does: in your actions; in the way your actions affect others; in the way your ideas work into others' minds.

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps we have different views of Faith. How does your Faith, that is a belief in God and of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, manifest itself physically in the lives of others? Especially: how do these manifestations negatively affect others?

Best I can come up with is the annoyance of having Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door.

When I arrive at the checkout line at a nearly identical moment as another and offer to let this person go in front of me, is that a physical manifestation of Faith? I would say "no". That's just being kind which does not in any way require Faith. Though the Faithful may be more likely to be kind.

I guess I need examples that are less contrived than the shipbuilder (which I think we've already concluded is not a problem with faith, but rather a problem with placing one's own faith above concern for others).

[snowden719]

hypothetical example:
I am a person who is fairly ignorant about science, and as such don;t take the effort to try and understand quantam mechanics. If I believe incorrectly that newtonian mechanics holds at a subatomic level I have committed an immoral act? That seems a bit bizzarre to mue, because I can;t really see what wrong I have done. Maybe if I told everyone the wrong thing I might have acted immorally under the broadest possible definition, but if I just sort of keep it to myself and never really discuss my views about physics with others I have avery tough time seeing what wrong I have done.

[spaminator101]

no i like to be called a reformed theologist

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Perhaps we have different views of Faith.

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You've capitalized faith, which shows that we do. What I mean by 'faith' is: anything believed upon insufficent evidence.

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How does your Faith, that is a belief in God and of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, manifest itself physically in the lives of others? Especially: how do these manifestations negatively affect others?

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The most obvious way is telling someone that Jesus is the only way to heaven (not you, I have no idea what your beliefs are). Or telling a homosexual that God hates his sexuality (which sometimes (sometimes) accompanies that belief. Or attending an anti-abortion rally.

See, the problem is not the belief itself. The problem is: do you believe it on sufficent evidence? There may be no sure way to know if the propositon you believe to be true is true, but if sufficent evidence points towards it being true, at least you can say: "If my belief affects someone negatively, at least I can be assured that it's not my whil or flight of fancy that is affecting the other but the true, or what actually exists in the world."

[RxForMoreCowbell]

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How does your Faith, that is a belief in God and of Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, manifest itself physically in the lives of others? Especially: how do these manifestations negatively affect others?


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Every religious cult in history which harmed others in any way made the decision to do so through faith. Every violent dictator in history has used the faith of the people in him as a tool to do his evil deeds (This may not necessarily be in conjunction with a religious faith, but note that often such dictators have claimed divine right and that their God wants the people to follow them). Also, as the example in the OP shows, leaders of people who base their policies on faith rather than logic are being negligent; if they always arrived at decisions based on logic rather than blind faith, these would be better decisions, and their followers would be better off for it.

Finally, to respond to an argument I often hear "But I am a mainstream Christian. My beliefs are not extreme like those in a cult, how does my faith hurt others?"

The problem is, how would you know if your beliefs are extreme or not? Due to the fact that you have faith in the Bible (and probably a specific interpretation of it) you cannot question whether that belief results in logically good actions. You must assume that it results in good. Therefore, you could never know if your faith is extreme and harmful or good logically, because you refuse to ask the question.

[FreakDaddy]

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We have an effect on the lives of others whether or not we have beliefs based on faith. But, it seems to be worth noting that those effects which come from faith may be beneficial to others, even to those who have no faith.

I admit to being a little lost, however. Your analogy between the shipbuilder's faith in his boat and a Christian's faith in god is a bit off the mark. The shipbuilder's faith has a physical manifestation; a Christian's faith does not usually manifest itself physically. An exception might be the faith in God's healing power.

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You should do some research on the history of Christianity then, or the history of any religion. Ummm... a lot of people have fight and died for belief. I think killing someone will definately have an effect on that person and their family, but I'm no expert in this field. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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The most obvious way is telling someone that Jesus is the only way to heaven (not you, I have no idea what your beliefs are). Or telling a homosexual that God hates his sexuality (which sometimes (sometimes) accompanies that belief. Or attending an anti-abortion rally.

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I would not feel in the least bit injured if you told me I wasn't going to heaven because I didn't believe in Jesus. I can see how religious indoctrination could injure a child.

The old "sticks and stones" argument comes to mind when someone tells a homosexual about a God who hates. Also, a truly Faithful individual would not hate or judge a homosexual even if he did not approve of his sexual orientation.

Which really brings us to individuals who justify their actions by claiming they were based upon Faith. One doesn't have to look beyond the Ten Commandments to realize that killing based upon Faith is really a violation of the Faith. I suspect strongly that many other religiously justified actions would turn out to be un-Faithful upon close examination.

But, I will concede that individuals often attempt to impose their (I would argue mistaken) version of Faith on others and in that way often injure others. I still don't believe that Faith in Jesus Christ will, by itself, have a negative effect on others. (And, I'm not the least bit Christian.)