AJo, KJo, KQo, and JQo, the 4 biggest money wasters at micro

[Nottom]

No, this is why you play AJo.

Party Poker 3/6 (10 handed)
Hero has Ad, Jh and is Button

Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero caps, SB calls

Flop(9 SB): 7c, Ac, 3s

SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls

Turn(6 1/2 BB): Qs

SB bets, Hero calls

River(8 1/2 BB): 2d

SB bets, Hero calls

SB has AT, HERO takes the pot.


It happens far more often that way then the other way around in most low-limit games.

[Nottom]

The suitedness helps a lot once the pot starts getting multiway (which is most of the time in a low-limit game).

[me454555]

I would disagree w/your comment about AJo being profitable in any position in all but the toughest games. I don't think its profitable at all in EP especially in the micros when you're normally in family style pots. You can't win by folding people and most of the time you have show down the best hand.

In a game against loose passive calling stations, I find it much more profitable to just chuck it rather than hope to catch on the flop.

I personally like raising b/c I find it much easier to play these hands HU than in multiway. Your only going to hit the flop 30% of the time. I'd rather play it heads up with the good chance to fold my opponent on the flop even if I miss it. In a mulitway pot I lose that option.

[me454555]

I konw they are in different groups in hepfap, but I'm looking at them as similar hands b/c they are big cards that play very similarly. You need to hit the the flop to win.

I routinely toss them if I'm in ep or there are too many limpers. I feel that I don't gain much ev by playing them in EP or after too many limpers. I think its just easier to toss them instead of getting myself into a lot of trouble with players who won't fold no matter what.

[Brian]

Hi tpir,

For a while, I also thought that suited-ness was overrated. But, it is not. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You are not alone on these forums in your thinking of suited-ness being overrated, either. One of the biggest proponents of "suitedness is overvalued" is LetsRock. He claims that it only adds 3% drawing potential to your hand, which is true. That seems pretty small, no? I am going to use an example MajorKong gave me, and if I am conveying this the wrong way, I am sure he will step in to correct me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Lets say that you have AQ, and somehow you know that in a 6 way pot, you will win about 15% of the time. However, if you have AQs, that suitedness will add 3% drawing potential to your hand. Now, instead of winning 15% of the time, you will win 18% of the time. That makes a *tremendous* difference. The fact that it is suited has now allowed you to win 20% more pots than you otherwise would have been able to.

So, in answer to your question, how much stronger are some of these suited hands than their non-suited counterparts? ATo is not a very great hand. Probably not even in the Top 40 Hold'em hands. ATs, on the other hand, is somewhere in the Top 15 hands in Hold'em. Just looking at Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players' hand rankings will show that S&M also hold a high value for suitedness:

AKs, 5th in their rankings, Group 1
AKo, 10th in their rankings, Group 2

AJs, 8th in their rankings, Group 2
AJo, 23rd in their rankings, Group 4

KJs, 14th in their rankings, Group 3
KJo, 29th in their rankings, Group 5

Etc.

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi me,

[ QUOTE ]
I would disagree w/your comment about AJo being profitable in any position in all but the toughest games. I don't think its profitable at all in EP especially in the micros when you're normally in family style pots. You can't win by folding people and most of the time you have show down the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that AKo and AQo are unprofitable in EP as well? While they are certainly much better hands than AJo, they are unlikely to make more than just top pair hands, like AJo.

If I'm playing in a true "No Fold'em Hold'em" game, then I am definitely not mucking AJo in EP. It is so much better of a hand than the crap that they are coming in with. If every pot is a family pot, then I'll simply limp with my AJ in early position, keep the pot small, and if they want to chase incorrectly, then so be it. I gain.

[ QUOTE ]
I personally like raising b/c I find it much easier to play these hands HU than in multiway. Your only going to hit the flop 30% of the time. I'd rather play it heads up with the good chance to fold my opponent on the flop even if I miss it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are contradicting yourself a bit here. First you state that AJo will frequently face family pots and "you can't win by folding people and most of the time you have show down the best hand." Now you are saying that you want to get it short-handed so that you can fold your opponent on the Flop even if you miss it...? Which is it?

AJo plays well heads-up and multi-way. I'd prefer to have few opponents, but if I'm at a table where all I can get is a lot of opponents, that doesn't mean I am going to muck it. It is definitely profitable in all but very tough games.

-Brian

[Brian]

Hi Nottom,

I am pretty sure that AJo is a much better hand than KQo mainly due to the showdown value of Ace high. This is especially important in shorthanded pots. Their other pros and cons pretty much cancel each other out. After 80k hands in Poker Tracker, AJo is doing much better for me than KQo, but it is a pretty small sample size.

According to PokerRoom.com, the total EV stats for AJo and KQo at any table/limit/position are .19 and .16, respectively.

-Brian

[me454555]

I don't muck AQo or AKo b/c they are much less vulnerable to overcards and when you miss the flop, you usually have 6 clean outs. When you have AJ and hit your jack, your still very vulnerable to overcards.

What I meant by saying you can fold people on the flop was that you can fold 1 person but when theres 3 or 4 people left on the flop, its very hard to fold everyone else. I find LLers are much looser pf than on the flop.

[Brian]

Hi me,

Yes, I am aware of the reasons that AK and AQ are better hands than AJ. Still, the fact remains that AJ is a much better hand than the types of hands your opponents are limping with. You will usually have their Aces dominated, and if they want to chase your pair of Jacks to the River, they will usually be making a mistake by doing so.

The main argument found on these boards about what to do with AJo in early position is whether to raise or just limp with it. Very few advocate folding it. Perhaps everyone else is wrong.

-Brian

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

The reason for raising hands like AJo and KQo preflop is to prevent weak draws and Ax and Kx hands from seeing the flop for one bet. While most of the time you need a pair to win with these hands, you want to set yourself up so that's *all* the help you need from the flop.

FWIW, I will limp with AJo and KQo from UTG or UTG+1, if it's folded to me any later than that I am definitely open-raising. I will also raise them UTG+2 with one loose limper behind me.