Anyone else hesitant with 33 in MP?

[dkernler]

I definitely don't mind if the table is typical and someone is already in. First in, I only limp if I'm fairly confident those behind me are loose and passive. For example, I fold 44 in MP when it's folded to me if I have a LAG still to play.

[chris_a]

There was this post by Bisonbison that someone recently bumped that has one take on this. It was specifically for the case of 22 UTG.

The point of it was that you should be able to call 22 UTG. Unqualified, this sounds like suicide and it definitely is. If you do it in a tight aggressive game, you will lose money with these hands given all the stats that I've ever seen.

However, he goes on to say that you should be exercising good enough table selection that you'll be getting enough pre-flop odds most of the time for hitting your set. This is a great point, even if the accuracy of his original statement (limping with 22 UTG) isn't great. While the sample size he produced wasn't sufficient to show his win rate was positive with these pairs UTG (he showed 22-55 I believe), his point is valid. Somewhat.

If you are in a game with 9 70% VPIPers who seldom raise preflop, then it's pretty clear that you should play it UTG.

If the game has 9 tight aggressives, you shouldn't be in it and this call (and the one you mentioned) are probably suicide.

If you have half and half, which is much more likely to happen at a limit like 0.5/1 or 1/2, then it's not so clear anymore.

If the best game on Party is significantly profitable to you (say >2 BB/100 hands) but isn't profitable enough to limp 22 UTG, you should certainly play it in because it's profitable, and certainly not limp 22 UTG. I believe such conditions exist. Limping 22 UTG unconditionally is not adapting to the game properly, one of the most important aspects of a good poker player.

However, bisonbison's point was interesting, if exaggerated.

As for your question 33 in MP, it's similar, but now you're guaranteed not to get enough players (unless almost everybody else limps), to have bad position for the rest of the hand, and to have to worry about three overcards most of the times when you don't hit your set. Your opponents have to be really bad pre-flop and post-flop to limp here. I personally muck this in all but the absolute juiciest games.

[GrunchCan]

How many times do we have to say it?

Limp any PP from any position, except 99 or higher which you raise.

That's it.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have half and half, which is much more likely to happen at a limit like 0.5/1 or 1/2, then it's not so clear anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's still clear. If you're exercising semi-decent/intelligent table selection limping with 22 UTG is perfectly fine. In order words, 98% of your typical .50/1 Party games.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
How many times do we have to say it?

Limp any PP from any position, except 99 or higher which you raise.

That's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really not that straightforward.

[VBM]

easiest hand to play in the world.

if you flop your set, play on.
if not, fold.

also, if you're getting fantastic odds/implied odds to see a turn (e.g. flop comes flop comes out 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], you close flop action, lots of limpers to you) a call is sometimes good too...

also, this may be a table-selection thing; if you're on tables which are tight and/or aggressive pre-flop, you may want to try and find a more loose-passive table to play on...

[Shillx]

Question is too vague, but no sometimes you should throw away PP in unraised pots. For example you have 44 in MP. First five people fold, you should fold.

You are probably losing $$$ with them because you misplay them postflop. Namely you play your sets to slow/passively and you probably take cards off w/o odds when you don't flop a set.

Brad

[GrunchCan]

Ok, here's a more quantitative look at the EV of playing low PPs.

The odds of hitting a set with a low PP are: (2/50)+(2/49)+(2/48) = .12.

When you hit a set with a low PP, its probably fair to estimate your equity at about 75%. (Possibly higher, this is open for debate)

.12 * .75 = .09, so 9% of the time when you play a low PP, you will win the pot.

If you routinely limp a low PP (eg, play for 1 SB), you will need to make up 1/.09 = 11.1 SB when you do hit your set in order to break even. 11.1 SB = 5.5 BB. If you have 2 passive opponents on the river who will call 1 bet each, you make 4 BB on the turn & river, leaving 1.5 BB to be made up on the flop & PF, or 3 SB. Its really a piece of cake to make up 3 SB on the cheap streets. In fact, its impossible not to if you have 2 opponents.

If you can carry 2 opponents all the way to the river when you hit your set, it is +EV to play any low PP regardless f position. If you can have many opponents on the cheap streets that fold on the turn, you probably only need 1 opponent on the river.

If you think your chances of taking the pot with a set are higher than 75% (see assumption above), then if becomes even MORE +EV to play low PPs.

Moreover, this assumes that you will only win with a low PP when you flop a set. This is clearly not true - low PPs can take other pots as well, although playing those hands post flop is much harder than playing a set. The point is, it is generally always +EV (at our limits) to play low PPs, assuming you are playing for a set. The better postflop skills you have, the more +EV it becomes becasue of the additional non-set $ you can make with low PPs.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Does everyone call with ANY PP from MP? I'm finding it a little spewy with 22-66.

From 66 down I have one net winner. The rest are costing me a fortune...

Anyone with a ginormous sample making a decent amount with these?

[/ QUOTE ]

i haven't read all the responses, but i hope people aren't saying flat yes's or no's. in general, limp is correct, but you really need to be position aware (MP1 and MP3 are quite different), table texture aware, and know how many limpers to you.

2 limpers to you, easiest limp ever in MP1 - MP3.

1 limper to you, generally an easy limp in MP1, MP2. in MP3 consider raising 66. consider folding 22-55, but limping is fine if you know those behind you.

0 limpers to you, raise or fold in MP2-MP3. in MP1, you could still open-limp if the table is loose enough.

[waynethetrain]

The one fly in the ointment is a pre-flop raise!

Some percentage of the time, you will be raised pre-flop. In those cases, it will usually be -EV to play most of the low pairs. So if you are coming in early, you better make sure you are on either be on a very loose table or very passive table otherwise it will be tough to make up 2SBs.