Need help on my play, PT and graphs included - Page 2

bottomset · #11 09-05-2005, 04:18 PM

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With all due respect, I trust the knowledge of Miller and Sklansky more than the posters here. So I wouldn't say my advice was "wrong".

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check out the taking off the training wheels post, the guides are just that, guides they help new players advoid getting into too much trouble, the EV of limping AJo UTG vs EV of raising it is usually very close .. though in most situations I believe raising is better

Dunno · #12 09-05-2005, 04:30 PM

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With all due respect, I trust the knowledge of Miller and Sklansky more than the posters here. So I wouldn't say my advice was "wrong".

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check out the taking off the training wheels post, the guides are just that, guides they help new players advoid getting into too much trouble, the EV of limping AJo UTG vs EV of raising it is usually very close .. though in most situations I believe raising is better

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#13 09-05-2005, 05:18 PM

Yeah, I understand that. As you mentioned, the EV difference is minimal. Raising it might be better in some cases.

Still, it's not like my advice was "wrong" by saying I wouldn't raise all those UTG. Wrong would be me saying something like don't raise AQo or TT UTG.

#14 09-05-2005, 06:28 PM

First off, thanks for your replies.

Again, since I've changed my PFR recently I don't think that's an issue. Also, my preflop hand selection is in line with the 2+2 guides which I've read. I also have the book Internet Texas Hold 'em and plan to read through it again.

My post-flop play is what seems to be killing me. I don't know what type of hands I should be posting that would be helpful. I went through the last several which I lost $1+. Nearly all were hands in which I lost to a set or a flush draw which was hit.

I seem to have been encountering an unusual number of situations where I have a pretty good hand but my oponents either hit something better on the flop or my bets don't keep them from drawing to a straight or flush. Here's one recent example.

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 5 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks.

Turn: (3 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks.

River: (3 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results below:
SB has 6d 8c (straight, ten high).
Hero has As Ah (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: SB wins 11 BB. 

^^ should I stop slow-playing entirely until I pick up my play? This really bit me.

Here's another where I thought I was making the right choices with a lot of outs.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results below:
UTG+2 has Jc Ah (two pair, aces and jacks).
Hero has Th Jh (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 9 BB. 

With the way this guy was betting I didn't know whether to expect a set, so I didn't raise the turn, and he/she was the type that would stay in the hand with any kind of draw.

Lately it seems like my losses/wins are either:
a) I have top pair or two pair but get beat by a set on the flop, or a straight / flush draw
b) I have a great hand but there are only one or two people in the hand and my return is minimal

It seems if there are 5 people in for the flop I'll lose 90% of the time. Can't figure this out.

Please let me know what types of hands you'd like to see - i.e. when I'm 4-flushed on the flop, when I hit a set on the flop, etc.

numeri · #15 09-05-2005, 06:45 PM

Hand 1: I'm sorry, but this is really bad. You seem to be aware of that, though, so I'll leave it at that.

Hand 2: I might raise the turn, but I would have preferred a 7, Q, or T. I think your play is fine.

BTW, don't post results when posting hands. It skews the responses because sub-consciously people know what the villain had.

EDIT: Forgot to reply to your other general comments. First, I've found it very helpful to analyze my losing sessions. I'm at a point now where I'm able to recognize my bad play after the fact. You may not be there yet. You may not be betting/raising/check-raising enough to protect your hands. It's hard to give one quick answer for your quesions, unfortunately.

(Side note: If you're not comfortable with analyzing your own play, there may be posters here who would be willing to take a look at a session or two.)

xGoreDudex · #16 09-05-2005, 06:48 PM

Okay Sabs,

Hand #1...

You've flopped top set on a draw heavy board. BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET BET this everytime, did I mention bet?. Do not slow play here. You are giving people currently on draws a free card, we don't want to do this as your set is beatable.

Now, don't check it through again on the turn. It got checked through on the flop, we don't want to give another free card and loose more equity, we want people with draws that aren't made to PAY us for being on a draw.

I'm a bit weak tight myself,
but on hand #2 by the turn any queen or 7 counterfits your two-pair at this point with a draw heavy board again I believe the J didn't help you. It isn't out of the ball park to think this way either as their was no raise pre-flop to driver weaker hands out. I'd either fold or re-raise this turn HU.

Good luck.

G.

Greg J · #17 09-05-2005, 07:36 PM

Raising all the hand OP listed UTG would not be bad. That you advised him to think twice about a play that adds some much needed preflop raisage to his game, sorry I found it to be highly questionable advise. I will be the first to admit that Miller et al have forgotten more about limit hold em than I know -- but the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy still applies here.

Still, I like the cut of yr jib. You might want to check out the taking off the training wheels post by Ed Miller. (Who has a link?) I don't like those charts as they are not contextual enough. There are times when 55 calls for a raise (or a 3 bet!), and starting hand charts can't give you that. That being said, if the OP raised all the hands he listed in EP he would be on the right track to improving his game. If you advise otherwise without listing which hands are not raisable (99 at a table full of cold callers), then that is bad advise. Basically, I think you should defend yr position more.

But as always, I enjoy the discourse.

Fantam · #18 09-05-2005, 07:54 PM

Hi again Sabs.

Any hands that you have had difficulty with are fine, and these hands are fine too. I think that they may help to illustrate some of the difficulty that you seem to have been having.

Hand 1:
You slowplayed this hand the whole way through, to presumably not lose any bets by frightening other players off. Perhaps you were hoping to check/raise at some stage.

The trouble is that you allowed a weak hand to draw out on you, and you lost a hand that you should probably have won.

Although you had a set on the flop, there were still flush and straight draws available for your 2 remaining opponents. So you would probably have been better off betting to extract bets from your opponents who chose to continue to draw.

If you didnt bet the flop, you should definitely have bet the turn. Again you dont gain anything by allowing opponents a free opportunity to draw out against you. By betting the turn you gain bets when your opponents call with weak draws. Over time you will win more often than your opponents do to make betting the correct play.

Hand 2:
Funny enough this hand is the opposite of the 1st hand.

On the flop you had a very strong drawing hand. You had top pair, but you also had 13 outs to 2 pair, trip T's or a straight. Calling the flop bet to keep other players in, would probably have been the best way to maximise value for your hand if you won.

By raising the flop, you encouraged other players to fold who may have helped pad the pot for the times that you won.

When you made 2 pair on the turn, you should have raised your opponent's bet. (It was unlikely that he would have 3-bet a flush draw on the flop HU.)

Unfortunately you got drawn out on the river with this hand. Your opponent got lucky. But it would have been better if there had been a few more opponents to pay you off if you had made your straight.

Keep posting hands. I know that not everyone will agree with my analysis (although I think its pretty reasonable) [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

However by continuing to post hands like these you will start to think about the things which will help to improve your game.

NateDog · #19 09-05-2005, 07:59 PM

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OP posted:

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Note: PF raise is quite low but I recently started raising AJo+ KQo ATs+ KJs+ 99+ so those numbers have been increasing.

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Good.

Escapeplan replied:

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You don't want to raise all those hands from early position...

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This is wrong. You should raise almost all those hands UTG in most .5/1 Party games. One exception might be to open limp 99 utg if you will get multiple cold callers anyhow.

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Are ATs and KJs standard as well? I'm not as comfortable raising those UTG, but easily open-raising from MP1+. UTG+1 is a grey area as well.

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What's up Danny boy. Not in EP, but you should be limping them. I'll start popping them up in MP.

hemstock · #20 09-05-2005, 08:12 PM

STOP playing poker. You really have to learn how to play first. I'm not trying to be a smartass BUT whenever you sit down to play you will be losing money!! You don't know how to make plays with positive expectation. You are gambling. Take a break and READ BOOKS.