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#12
10-19-2005, 02:18 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
First, I have not met a 10/20 player that is laying down his K on the flop! So that idea never entered my mind; that is, and maybe this is where my problem is in understanding your logic... I see no fold equity on the flop. [/ QUOTE ] I don't either and is likely why I never metioned anything about a K folding the flop nor picked any line to get a king to fold the flop. [ QUOTE ] OK... here goes and assuming no fold equity on betting the flop then my flop bet, in order to be correct, must be for value. [/ QUOTE ] Yes. [ QUOTE ] My logic says that whatever value I have on the flop will, similarly, be there on the turn. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, on both streets and I like money. [ QUOTE ] Would your line change if it were a given that you could not fold out a K on the flop ....? [/ QUOTE ] Who said anything about a K folding the flop? [ QUOTE ] ... or on a non- turn ? [/ QUOTE ] eh? 
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#13
10-19-2005, 02:25 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
Plus, since you said he doesn't get out of line, then you can fold to a check raise because he is not BSing you. [/ QUOTE ] Lots of "straightforward" players will check raise with a big spade as a semibluff. Mo's reason, I think, for checking the turn is to avoid being played in a small pot when he's probably ahead. This is why I like it. I understand that betting the flop will get him to fold any number of hands, but many of those hands are drawing very thin against Mo as is (low pocket pairs, non spade connectors that haven't paired up) and by waiting until the turn he might get paid off. I can't fold to a check-raise here which is why I don't want to bet the flop.
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#14
10-19-2005, 02:30 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
Why can't you fold to a check raise?
If he wants to get frisky with like Qs 8c or some other marginal hand you are only a slight favorite anyway. pokenum -h jd jh - qs 8c -- 6s ks ts Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ks Ts 6s cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV Jd Jh 543 54.85 447 45.15 0 0.00 0.548 Qs 8c 447 45.15 543 54.85 0 0.00 0.452 Most of the hands he checkraises you with though, you will be dominated. I don't think you can give a free card here to someone with like the 7s sitting in his hand.
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#15
10-19-2005, 02:50 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
Would your line change if it were a given that you could not fold out a K on the flop ....? [/ QUOTE ] Who said anything about a K folding the flop? my bad, I mis-read your comment ... or on a non- [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] turn it should have read. In any event, the basic difference in perception is that you appear to believe that we are ahead more than I, and when behind, have some fold equity if we maintain an aggressive stance throughout. I gotta tell ya, Joe, that if you, as hero, c/r me, as villain, on the flop and the turn as you seem to advocate then when you showdown JJ, win or lose, you are getting a big fat "lagass" "will hyper-aggressively push you off hands" note. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I view my holding as showdownable but I am not willing to be aggressive on more than 1 street. My street would have been the turn (c/r to villain;s anticipated bet but that being the last monies that I put in). Yours may be all 3 streets or do you give up on the river if villain leads? In reality, and this is the reality of the hand (though the discussion so far is probably more instructional than any discussion that is likely to follow), party 10/20 full table I open raise 3rd in with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Fairly ABC (never seems to get out-of-line) multi-tabling non-rockish, maybe 21/9/1.5, villain calls in the BB 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] villain checks, I check behind K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] villain checks (my perception is that this is a dangerous bet for villain - no matter what card turned - not an autobet because it can get very expensive for him and he may be drawing dead), I bet, he calls K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] villain cheks, I bet, he calls and loses with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
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#16
10-19-2005, 02:55 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
I view my holding as showdownable but I am not willing to be aggressive on more than 1 street. [/ QUOTE ] But you can make money on every street and I like money. So bet.
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#17
10-19-2005, 03:00 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
Why can't you fold to a check raise? If he wants to get frisky with like Qs 8c or some other marginal hand you are only a slight favorite anyway. pokenum -h jd jh - qs 8c -- 6s ks ts Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ks Ts 6s cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV Jd Jh 543 54.85 447 45.15 0 0.00 0.548 Qs 8c 447 45.15 543 54.85 0 0.00 0.452 Most of the hands he checkraises you with though, you will be dominated. I don't think you can give a free card here to someone with like the 7s sitting in his hand. [/ QUOTE ] I see this as bad on many levels: 1. folding to the flop c/r maybe folding the best hand; that is, if you are going to bet you must be able to call the c/r 2. metagame considerations 3. i am by no means an expert on this type of mathematical analysis - to say the opposite would be closer to the truth - but i believe your table reflects exactly what i have been saying; that is, that our equity is marginal on the flop so why get into a aggro battle where there is no fold equity involved. Said another way... wait until the turn to make your play when the scenario is more clear and you can more profitably force a spade draw to act incorrectly. 4. Any singleton spade the is in BB range of hands is continuing so your comment about the free-card does not make sense to me.
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#18
10-19-2005, 03:52 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
4. Any singleton spade the is in BB range of hands is continuing so your comment about the free-card does not make sense to me. [/ QUOTE ] I think a medium to low singleton spade with no pair will fold. That is the basis of my play and my comments and it is why we disagree regarding the course of action.
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#19
10-19-2005, 03:55 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
2. metagame considerations [/ QUOTE ] Please explain what you mean by metagame considerations? Do you think people are going to start check raising bluffing you so that you will fold? If I think someone is doing this taking shots at me, I will 3 bet them with nothing.
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#20
10-19-2005, 04:09 PM
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Re: JJ vs thinking multi-tabler (2+2er?)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 4. Any singleton spade the is in BB range of hands is continuing so your comment about the free-card does not make sense to me. [/ QUOTE ] I think a medium to low singleton spade with no pair will fold. That is the basis of my play and my comments and it is why we disagree regarding the course of action. [/ QUOTE ] There are virtually no low to medium singleton spades that are not paired that are in BB calling range though on a frisky day A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] may be within range. And, if it is within range, then he will call it down.
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