Marginal Hands from EP

[ajm36]

This is a great thread. I have recently been in the process of doing a hand by hand examination of my game--which hands are profitable, by how much, which are losers and by how much and which are marginal. I would like to point out that major "leaks" in your game occur around these "marginal" hands (at least for those of us who are dumb). If you look through your PT hand stats, you may be really surprised by what you find. You will find that your VPIP around these hands is fairly high (frequency) and your BB/100 loss is low, but your overall losses are high. You will be freqwuently overplaying these hands. For instance, KTo is such a loser for me from all but one position, I don't even play it anymore. I'm not going to magically learn how to play this hand now, my game is tremendously improved by just not playing this hand at all. I think this has something to do with this thread.

[tiltaholic]

i voted raise to all of them except KTo.
i hate KTo and it hates me.

i think my answers could change if i was there and saw who was yet to act behind me...how often they'd call 2 cold with a better hand, a marginal hand, etc...or how often they'd 3-bet with a better/marginal hand.

i'm going to try to hit the hands from memory:

AJo...first of all, this isn't a marginal hand. i take issue with that. but whatever. always raise this in an unraised pot at a weak table when you own the table, as you would.

ATo...ok, i agree with the marginalness of ATo. the way i play this hand changes dramatically based on my image and the table conditions. (same for A9o) i'd say that limping ATo in EP is probably the worst choice. Even worser after one limper. For confident postflop players and with confidence that you are restricting the field with a raise (ie, you're not going to get 3-5 cold callers) I prefer raising. When the table catches on to my sneakiness (usually never), I'll fold ATo from EP. Isolating a bad player (note, not a good player) who limps, with ATo is awesome and I love it.

KJo... tricky for a new player - see ATo. Currently, I'm folding it UTG and raising it UTG+2. Me no likely the open limp. Being that you have the sneakiness and asked about UTG+1, I'd say the answer likely is sometimes fold, sometimes raise (but I'm usually not folding, I feel confident I can play KJo postflop). And isolating a bad (not good) player with KJo is also the shizzle.

KTo - As mentioned previously, KTo is to me what reality is to foxnews. At a very weak table...I'll raise this from EP, but usually I fold. I'll isolate with KTo, but only when I'm confident I can get it headsup.

i think i got them all...

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious, ATo and AJo run pretty damn close but one is a fold for most people and one a raise. Is this arbitrary or do I just suck?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is because many charts promote AJo and disdain ATo.
(i think).

but, in fact one needs to draw the line somewhere, and for hands like AJo, ATo, and A9o (aka, pretty much a "top pair" kind of hand), we don't really want to encourage limpers behind us. thus, openraising is, imho, the better option (yes, we can have the should i limp AJo in EP discssion again...). so, we need to draw a line at some point where one hand is playable, and the next one down is a fold. for some people, in early position that line is between AJo and ATo.

depending on the table, I've opened with A8o, or A9o, or ATo in EP -- but in general at most tables, I don't think a "postflop unsure" player is hurt by putting the line at AJo/ATo as a general rule.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great thread. I have recently been in the process of doing a hand by hand examination of my game--which hands are profitable, by how much, which are losers and by how much and which are marginal. I would like to point out that major "leaks" in your game occur around these "marginal" hands (at least for those of us who are dumb). If you look through your PT hand stats, you may be really surprised by what you find. You will find that your VPIP around these hands is fairly high (frequency) and your BB/100 loss is low, but your overall losses are high. You will be freqwuently overplaying these hands. For instance, KTo is such a loser for me from all but one position, I don't even play it anymore. I'm not going to magically learn how to play this hand now, my game is tremendously improved by just not playing this hand at all. I think this has something to do with this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

in response to this, and also as a general comment i also want to say:

for the first 6-8 months after I started to play seriously...i never played ATo unless as a "steal" from CO or button. i only limped in with KJo from late middle position on, and always folded KTo.

That would be my starting condition from which I would suggest people learn to play these hands. My aggro comments in the thread are how I would play them now.

to ajm - i had that PT awakening with QJo. But remember that your positional stats are likely meaningless (and even for individual hands) you likely don't have enough instances to know for certain whether the $ results are meaningful.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious, ATo and AJo run pretty damn close but one is a fold for most people and one a raise. Is this arbitrary or do I just suck?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason ATo would be significantly different from AJo is due to the "probability of running into worse Aces" factor. So if a lot of people think AT sucks it's kind of a self-fulfilling thing.

Based on one of Eskimo's earlier threads I think AT and KJ are closer in value than AT and AJ. Of AT and KJ, both make TP3K with the top card, and making TPGK with the bottom card is vulnerable to exactly two overcards. A pair of A's is not vulnerable to an overcard as a pair of K's, but KJ is capable of making more than one straight and can flop an OESD.

KTo, on the other hand, I hate. It's bottom pair is vulnerable to three overcards, which are usually out against you in a table like this, and it also has the "who is playing worse kings?" factor. I can see someone very good at a table of terrible players being able to play it from EP but if you're in this situation regularly you could proably make more money moving up.

[shant]

I folded everything except AJo which I raised.

The reasons I have for mucking ATo is that there needs to be a cutoff. AJo is still +EV in EP, but on the same EV scale chart, ATo was slightly -EV from EP.

You can view that positional EV chart here.

I would raise ATs and even A9s here though.

[ QUOTE ]
This is a great thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

thankyou

[ajm36]

How many instances (or total hands played) would I need for this to be considered meaningful. I have 2 different time frames I use (i.e. all of my data and data from a specific date until now to represent "pre-tilt bender" and "post-tilt bender").

[mojobluesman]

Look at your small pairs like 22-66 that everyone used to encourage. They were a minor disaster for me even from late position let alone early position the way some people play them. Believe me, I wasn't playing them badly either. You just can't win with them unless the table is extremely loose and passive pre flop and somewhat loose and aggressive afterwards.

[ajm36]

For me, small pairs are not a problem. I am profitable with 22 and 55's on up--33 and 44 are VERY small losers. Not enough for me to stop playing them. I agree with you that these hands can become a major problem because of the tendency to overplay them form EP or MP and because people tend to call a single flop bet with them. If you restrict your playing of 22-55 to MP3, CO and the Button, this problem can be eliminated.