#11
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
He's saying that when you have AKo on the button and everyone and their mother limps to you, you shoulden't make an emormous raise to drive everyone out. Make a medium raise that all the hands you dominate will call, and play a multi-way pot where you still have good equity. Same goes for UTG. Don't make an emormous raise to drive everyone out, make a standard raise and play the pot multi-way if you have to. [/ QUOTE ] That's a big mistake imo. There are just too few flops that are going to be good for you, and when you allow a large range of hands to play against you, you're going to be drawn out on. What are we considering an enormous raise? I mean if the table is folding around for 4x BB raise, then put in a smaller raise to get a little action, but you have to be cognizant of what hands are being called with what BBx raise. |
#12
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
An enormous raise would be something that is beyond normal for the table. Generally, that will be 6+ BBs.
Sure, when you're playing a 5-way pot, most flops aren't going to look good. But when you get a flop that is good, you will win 4 times more money than if the pot were heads up. How is this bad? |
#13
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
You're ignoring a few things. In a multi-way pot, you will win more money when you make the best hand with tptk. In a multi-way pot, people will be more likely to chase you down with something like 2nd pair or an outkicked top pair. The larger pot makes it easier to stack someone when you flop big. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm fully aware of that. It's not good poker imo. How well is everyone going to be when you flop top pair and one of the 6 people agaisnt you flops bottom two pair, smooth calls you till the river and then raises or pushes on the end with an innocent looking board? Will you get away from the hands all the time? Will the occasional times you do hit a nice flop with a large field compensate for the times you get outflopped? I'll do the math for you. Or at least I'll have poker stove do some of the math. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] |
#14
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm really not sure what your comment is about exactly. Are you advocating that you shouldn't raise pre-flop with AK? You're not entirely clear, so I'm in the dark a bit trying to make sense of your presumably insightful post. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not a clear writer so apologies for that. I'm just throwing out some ideas and getting feedback, it's not meant to be 'insightful' What I'm saying is that AK is a good hand and your objective preflop is to build a big pot more so than limiting the field. The general consensus seems to be that you're raising with AK primarily to limit the field and get one or two callers (or be happy to get the blinds/limps). In my post I (attempt) to discuss why this is not optimal. Hope that makes it clearer. <edit> I'm saying you should always be raising AK, just not overraising to drive almost everyone out as some other posters have stated. I agree, getting 6 callers is absurb and -EV. |
#15
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
He's saying that when you have AKo on the button and everyone and their mother limps to you, you shoulden't make an emormous raise to drive everyone out. Make a medium raise that all the hands you dominate will call, and play a multi-way pot where you still have good equity. [/ QUOTE ] Let's think about what could happen. 0.50-1$ blinds. You are on the button. 7 limpers. 8$ pot. Scenario 1: You raise to 4$. BB calls with 77. UTG folds. UTG+1 calls with JTs. MP sees a big pot developing and calls with 78s. CO sees a lot of money in the middle, thinks: what the hell, and calls with T8o. This is a 25$ pot against 4 opponents. Second scenario: you raise to 8$. BB calls with 77, rest folds. This is a 20$ pot against one opponent. Guess which one gives you most equity? |
#16
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
Imagine you have AK in MP and there are few limpers. You elect to raise the pot. You think about how much to raise and here are typical thoughts :
"I should choose the size of my raise to : a)build the pot b)drive my opponents out c)be aggresor in the pot d)take it down now and here BZ Zorro is saying (I think) that b) and d) should not be considered with AK Best wishes |
#17
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
I think the flaw in my logic is that I have far less negative implied odds with AK than most players. AK has a ton of negative implied odds for most players, since they marry their tptk.
If you aren't good at getting away from tptk, then you shoulden't play it multi-way. As such, a big pfr might be needed. If you are good at getting away from tptk, then you can play it multi-way. |
#18
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
An enormous raise would be something that is beyond normal for the table. Generally, that will be 6+ BBs. Sure, when you're playing a 5-way pot, most flops aren't going to look good. But when you get a flop that is good, you will win 4 times more money than if the pot were heads up. How is this bad? [/ QUOTE ] Your math is off bro. If you raise and get one or two callers, it should be almost the same money in the pot. What I thought you were saying is to allow more people in so that when you do hit, you'll take down a larger pot, of course providing that someone didn't hit bigger than you. |
#19
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
The problem with your scenario is that no one is calling with dominated hands.
How about you raise to 4, and JTs calls you as well as KQ and AT. I sure as hell like my equity and awesome implied odds now. If I raise to 8, those hands fold. |
#20
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Re: AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong.
[ QUOTE ]
I think the flaw in my logic is that I have far less negative implied odds with AK than most players. AK has a ton of negative implied odds for most players, since they marry their tptk. If you aren't good at getting away from tptk, then you shoulden't play it multi-way. As such, a big pfr might be needed. If you are good at getting away from tptk, then you can play it multi-way. [/ QUOTE ] Really... I'll post some hands that I got stacked with AK in a multi-way pot. You tell me if you'd get away from the hand? Sound good? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I had one last night that I raised decent size with AKs got 3 callers. Flop came KK5... looks good to me, but unfortunetly someone flopped a boat. Almost lost my whole stack, but I smelled boat on the turn. |
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