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#11
12-28-2005, 02:49 PM
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Re: Folding small blind so you can steal later
hello donk,
first of all let me say i am far from an expert on this topic and am happy to hear other's, better, informed views. my problem with this "standard" move is, it isn't consistent with the rest of the "standard" play of SnG's. what i mean by that is SnG play is dominated by pushing in the stages of the game where the stack sizes dictate that play, not the cards. this is deemed correct because the math says it is correct. it is positive ev. fine. if that's the case, then, why ignore positive ev play early in the tourney ??? especially when you are "risking" maybe 1% of your stack to see a flop that could (on rare occasions), send you on your way ??? to me, that's not logical..... but i've been wrong before :-> :-> :-> 
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#12
12-28-2005, 02:53 PM
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Re: Folding small blind so you can steal later
[ QUOTE ]
isn't folding any hand to a random hand (and that's what the BB has as far as we are concerned from the SB) a mathematical error since the SB is getting 3:1 odds on his call ??? i mean the worst hand 27o is only a 65:35 dog to a random hand like Q6o. 27o is only a 67:33 dog vs AKo !!! isn't folding the SB to the BB heads up a violation of the fundemental theorm ??? [/ QUOTE ] IMO the 3:1 odds from the small blind is one of the worst myths out there. You are not getting 3:1 odds on your money unless the hand is checked down to the river. For the most part it is impossible to win the pot without risking at least a half pot bet at some point. Effectively you are getting 1:1 on your money, out of position against an unknown hand. Raising because you feel you have the best hand( or can steal the blinds) and calling because you feel you can outplay your opponenet enough to offset the positional disadvantage (no easy task) are legitimate reasons to get involved from the SB. Calling becuse you think you are getting 3:1 odds is just bad IMO.
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#13
12-28-2005, 03:16 PM
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Re: Folding small blind so you can steal later
"...Calling becuse you think you are getting 3:1 odds is just bad IMO."
BN dan harrington would disagree with you. in the last 2 chapters of "harrington on holdem #2" , he repeatedly makes the point that folding the SB heads up is a big error. he chastized john d'agastino in his heads up clash with phil ivey for 3 times folding the SB. ivey NEVER folded the SB. this head's up clashed occurred with a high M situation (>20), much as you find in the early rounds of SnG's
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#14
12-28-2005, 03:20 PM
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Re: Folding small blind so you can steal later
I haven't seen this topic discussed much on this forum.
I agree w this statement because this is something I do and I have not seen much discussed in regards to it. The one issue I see is the player you do this against has to be good enough to be paying attention and bad enough not to see through the play. I wish I knew where the hand history was for a specific example but a 2+2er was folding to me early in the sb. Later when the blinds were high, he moved and I called with a weak ace and questioned why I would not respect the raise.
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#15
12-28-2005, 03:28 PM
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Re: Folding small blind so you can steal later
[ QUOTE ]
"...Calling becuse you think you are getting 3:1 odds is just bad IMO." BN dan harrington would disagree with you. in the last 2 chapters of "harrington on holdem #2" , he repeatedly makes the point that folding the SB heads up is a big error. he chastized john d'agastino in his heads up clash with phil ivey for 3 times folding the SB. ivey NEVER folded the SB. this head's up clashed occurred with a high M situation (>20), much as you find in the early rounds of SnG's [/ QUOTE ] Folding the SB headsup is a different animal. You have position for the rest of the hand when you are headsup. When there are more than two players at the table your SB is out of position for the entire hand. There is a huge flaw in thinking that SB v BB plays the same as headsup.
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#16
12-28-2005, 04:01 PM
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Re: Folding small blind so you can steal later
[ QUOTE ]
"...Calling becuse you think you are getting 3:1 odds is just bad IMO." BN dan harrington would disagree with you. in the last 2 chapters of "harrington on holdem #2" , he repeatedly makes the point that folding the SB heads up is a big error. he chastized john d'agastino in his heads up clash with phil ivey for 3 times folding the SB. ivey NEVER folded the SB. this head's up clashed occurred with a high M situation (>20), much as you find in the early rounds of SnG's [/ QUOTE ] Apples and oranges.
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