Wait till the turn

[W. Deranged]

Q,

What is your plan for a turn [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? What about for a turn A? K?

I've found myself using this play more and more, particularly in short-handed pots and against slightly stronger/more aggressive live players. I'm still somewhat at a loss for how to approach this kind of play when the bad card comes on the turn. If, on this hand, you raised the flop and then an overcard or spade came on the turn, you would certainly bet if checked to but could release relatively cheaply if check-raised. If you wait to raise the turn, you risk putting in two big bets or even more before you realize you are up against a monster. The SB-sized difference between the losses in those two situations seems quite meaningful to me.

Thanks for the help in advance.

[Clarkmeister]

re: the thread you linked, I don't think he really got cruicified. The first half of the thread supported him. I think he played it fine. The truth of the matter is that you should play it both ways from time to time.

[VBM]

i raise this flop. for me, TPGK with bd straight draw isn't enough to wait for the "safe" turn card; partially b/c we don't know what constitutes a "safe" card here and partially because we don't even know if we're winning off the flop, much less on the turn...

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Q,

What is your plan for a turn [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? What about for a turn A? K?

I've found myself using this play more and more, particularly in short-handed pots and against slightly stronger/more aggressive live players. I'm still somewhat at a loss for how to approach this kind of play when the bad card comes on the turn. If, on this hand, you raised the flop and then an overcard or spade came on the turn, you would certainly bet if checked to but could release relatively cheaply if check-raised. If you wait to raise the turn, you risk putting in two big bets or even more before you realize you are up against a monster. The SB-sized difference between the losses in those two situations seems quite meaningful to me.

Thanks for the help in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

The BB called my raise and MP folded.

The river was the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], BB checked and I checked behind. Of course, I was planning on betting a rag and maybe even a raggy spade; however, the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] was just too much for me.

He showed me a red Q6 and MHIG.

[bobbyi]

I don't like it because if BB is betting a draw, he will often check it on the turn after getting called in three spots on the flop. I don't like the pf raise either without an opponent-specific reason.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.
-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really a bit surprised there was so much talk about PF here as I thought this was very, very standard. I'm just trying to get the blinds out of the hand here and keep it shorthanded....right out of SSHE.

[housenuts]

raising that preflop was also my concern. i guess maybe i should be making more raises like this.

i probably just raise this flop instead of the turn though.

[jjacky]

does hero still have an edge against a bettor and a caller on the turn?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.
-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really a bit surprised there was so much talk about PF here as I thought this was very, very standard. I'm just trying to get the blinds out of the hand here and keep it shorthanded....right out of SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not shorthanded (it's already 3-handed), it's highly unlikely you'll fold both the blinds, as you're offering BB 7.5:1, and you're bloating the pot.

I don't think it's a big deal. I just think there's less reason to raise Queen high here than you seem to be giving it credit for.

One of the biggest problems our opponents have is that they call too often postflop with the worst of it. We mitigate this problem by raising preflop because we make the pot larger, and we don't gain much from it, as our equity edge isn't particularly large, even against 3 random hands.

Rob

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't raise pf, but I don't think it's much different (+ or -) than limping.
-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really a bit surprised there was so much talk about PF here as I thought this was very, very standard. I'm just trying to get the blinds out of the hand here and keep it shorthanded....right out of SSHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not shorthanded (it's already 3-handed), it's highly unlikely you'll fold both the blinds, as you're offering BB 7.5:1, and you're bloating the pot.

I don't think it's a big deal. I just think there's less reason to raise Queen high here than you seem to be giving it credit for.

One of the biggest problems our opponents have is that they call too often postflop with the worst of it. We mitigate this problem by raising preflop because we make the pot larger, and we don't gain much from it, as our equity edge isn't particularly large, even against 3 random hands.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

There were only 2 limpers to me. Page 74 "On the button you can usually play any of these hands in an unrasied pot. If the pot is still short-handed, raise (especially with AT and KJ) to try to fold the blinds. Against several limpers, just limp in."

If the blinds are very loose and don't care whether there's a raise or not, I just limp in here.

I do understand you're thoughts, though; however I do think it's more advantageous to keep it short-handed here than to keep the pot size small since the vast majority of the time we're probably looking at a vunerable top pair hand if we even improve.