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#1
12-26-2005, 12:14 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
[ QUOTE ]
Now, I'm not itching to get my stack in everytime if I only flop one K or Q. I'm shooting for two pair or better, but I think you can still make some money with just TP2K here. [/ QUOTE ] Well, I mean, if I'm shooting for two pair, then I could call with anything. If fact, I'd rather call here with low suited connectors than with KQo. You don't think it's siginificant that there has been a raise and two callers? First, I could easily be dominated by someone. Second, I'm playing the hand OOP. And I don't have a large enough stack to find out where I'm at w/o it really hurting my stack. So, I can't play it strong at all even if I flop TP. Which might allow even one of the callers to luck into a hand that beats me. And it's so easy to just fold and move on. Use my skill at bubble play to my advantage and keep a healthy stack. I honestly think that KQo, in this particular case, is one of the worst hands to have here. Again, I'd call with something like 67s before calling with this. 
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#2
12-26-2005, 01:11 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
[ QUOTE ]
I honestly think that KQo, in this particular case, is one of the worst hands to have here. Again, I'd call with something like 67s before calling with this. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think KQ is as bad you are making it out to be in this situation. Assuming your opponents are typical, KQ dominates far more hands in their range than it is dominated by. Do you agree? KQ is a trouble hand in a lot of situations because unless it flops hard, you are often in danger of being dominated or simply 2nd best. But I think the reverse is also worth considering. Flops that hit KQ hard(6QK, TJA) often give a the PFR a hand he'll stack off with.
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#3
12-26-2005, 01:24 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
[ QUOTE ]
KQ is a trouble hand in a lot of situations because unless it flops hard, you are often in danger of being dominated or simply 2nd best. But I think the reverse is also worth considering. Flops that hit KQ hard(6QK, TJA) often give a the PFR a hand he'll stack off with. [/ QUOTE ] That is a very good point. RESULTS: In THIS case, it worked out for me. UTG had AK, one of the callers had KT. Don't know what the other caller had. Obviously I'm not saying that because I dodged a bullet in this case that I necessarily made the 'correct' decision. But I thought that the hand would generate a good discussion.
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#4
12-26-2005, 01:35 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
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But I thought that the hand would generate a good discussion. [/ QUOTE ] And I believe it has. I'm starting to get the feeling that maybe it's close enough to be nearly irrelevant, although this is a game based on the accumulation of small edges over time [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I'm eager to hear a couple of the big guns weigh in. Somebody go wake curtains up.
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#5
12-26-2005, 02:09 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I mean, if I'm shooting for two pair, then I could call with anything. If fact, I'd rather call here with low suited connectors than with KQo. You don't think it's siginificant that there has been a raise and two callers? First, I could easily be dominated by someone. Second, I'm playing the hand OOP. And I don't have a large enough stack to find out where I'm at w/o it really hurting my stack. So, I can't play it strong at all even if I flop TP. Which might allow even one of the callers to luck into a hand that beats me. And it's so easy to just fold and move on. Use my skill at bubble play to my advantage and keep a healthy stack. I honestly think that KQo, in this particular case, is one of the worst hands to have here. Again, I'd call with something like 67s before calling with this. [/ QUOTE ] Easy fold for all these reasons. I think this is a real chip bleeding situation, sure 50/1000 is not much, but there's no way you hit a good enough flop enough times to make this worthwhile.
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#6
12-26-2005, 02:16 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
[ QUOTE ]
You don't think it's siginificant that there has been a raise and two callers? First, I could easily be dominated by someone. Second, I'm playing the hand OOP. And I don't have a large enough stack to find out where I'm at w/o it really hurting my stack. So, I can't play it strong at all even if I flop TP. Which might allow even one of the callers to luck into a hand that beats me. And it's so easy to just fold and move on. Use my skill at bubble play to my advantage and keep a healthy stack. I honestly think that KQo, in this particular case, is one of the worst hands to have here. Again, I'd call with something like 67s before calling with this. [/ QUOTE ] My thoughts exactly, though I'm probably a tighter caller than most.
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#7
12-26-2005, 12:19 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
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If MP or the button bets after UTG and I check, I probably will c/r all in if their PT numbers tell me they suck, but that depends on the flop texture and a few other things as well. [/ QUOTE ] I respect your opinion, but the problem with this line is that if you C/R all-in, UTG is still to act after you. That could be very bad. Not that it's likely UTG checks TP, but if he does, you're toast most likely. Now, say you check. Free cards all around! I hate hands that I can not play strongly but could easily cost me a large portion of my stack.
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#8
12-26-2005, 01:02 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If MP or the button bets after UTG and I check, I probably will c/r all in if their PT numbers tell me they suck, but that depends on the flop texture and a few other things as well. [/ QUOTE ] I respect your opinion, but the problem with this line is that if you C/R all-in, UTG is still to act after you. That could be very bad. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. As I said, I'd probably push over the shortstacks, the big factor would be my "reads" (PT numbers) of whoever bets the flop and of UTG. I have no problem at all letting one pair go here if UTG comes out betting, if it goes MP bet -button call, or if something just doesn't feel right, as silly as that sounds. Put another way, with just one pair in this situation, I'm going to err on the side of caution.
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#9
12-26-2005, 12:14 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
I probably call pf, but I have trouble letting go post flop if K,Q hit (utg could be betting AK, AQ and I am toast). So nothing wrong with folding pf if you lack post flop skills like me :-(
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#10
12-26-2005, 12:24 PM
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Re: Passing up 7:1 pot odds with KQo
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So nothing wrong with folding pf if you lack post flop skills like me :-( [/ QUOTE ] I didn't think it was a matter of lacking post flop skills. Rather, my stack's not deep enough to find out if I'm dominated, but there is a significant likelihood that I am. Why should I piss away future FE while playing a hand that just screams 'danger' when I don't have to?
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