TPTK early in the PS $500k

[mlagoo]

nobody likes raising this turn?

I think that line looks fairly strong as well (actually, it pretty much exactly describes our hand to a thinking opponent) -- he should put us on exactly AJ or a pocket pair QQ+. Which, you know, is what we have.

I mean, a beautiful card fell for us. I really don't think he leads this turn for a full pot AGAIN with a set -- he probably checks to let us try to "take it away." I think we're ahead, but I also think we get more chips in (and more information) by value betting the turn rather than the flop or the river.

Maybe I'm thinking all wrong =/

[dmk]

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nobody likes raising this turn?

I think that line looks fairly strong as well (actually, it pretty much exactly describes our hand to a thinking opponent) -- he should put us on exactly AJ or a pocket pair QQ+. Which, you know, is what we have.

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Why would you want to tell villian exactly what you have? If you only play 1 or 2 hands that way, then you're giving away too much information.

Anyway, on the flop calling and raising both have their merits. I raise for all the reasons MLG mentioned. You can basically either take down the pot when you're ahead or shutdown when you're not. Sucks, doesn't it? But you want to keep the pot small, which means taking it down while its small, or folding when it gets big.

You chose calling, fine. On the turn its pretty safe to fold, IMO. I honestly can't see raising the turn - what are you reasonably ahead of that will call your raise? On top of that, the only real raise you can make is all-in, which sucks. You either fold here, or call and call a river bet.

Calling sucks, i hate calling. I hate folding too. I love raising. You can't raise here though. Fold.

[mlagoo]

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nobody likes raising this turn?

I think that line looks fairly strong as well (actually, it pretty much exactly describes our hand to a thinking opponent) -- he should put us on exactly AJ or a pocket pair QQ+. Which, you know, is what we have.

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Why would you want to tell villian exactly what you have? If you only play 1 or 2 hands that way, then you're giving away too much information.

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Well I mean, to be fair, villains dont pay enough attention, and dont have enough information, at least during the early stages of these tournaments, for that to matter.


Listen, it's possible that the caliber of players in these tournaments is different enough that I shouldn't go broke with this hand -- I don't know, I don't play in them. But in a <$55 MTT, I'm going broke here everytime, and I don't think (or at least, have not been convinced) that's a leak.

I was thinking about something I never do but... anyway tell me what you think.

If you don't fold - Min-raise (500 more) as if you have a monster and want to pot commit him for a river bet. If he calls, he should not lead the river so you can as well check, if he raises, he definitely have a monster and you can fold knowing you are beat.

What do you think?

First of all, I would have raised to 400-450 the flop. Given you didn't do that :

No flush possibility, no str8 possibility (open ended at most), I think he may have 2 pairs J8 or 86 and he is value betting it.

If he has KJ or QJ, he his playing very strong, but since you called his bet he may think you have AK or AQ or a pp lower than a J, so he bets to take the pot. I don't think he has a set, too large a bet.

I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.

River to follow... obviously you called...

[dmk]

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I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.


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That can't be right - calling a pot-bet on turn, and folding to a pot-bet on the river when an offsuit deuce comes. It means you made a mistake on one of the streets unless you think he has J2 or 22. That said, what are you hoping for on the river? Do you call if an A falls? If so, you should call when the 2 falls. Are you comfortable calling off pot-sized bets w/ 1 pair w/ 100BB+ stacks? I'm not. So I fold the turn (actually I raise the flop as the case may be).

[mlagoo]

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I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.


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That can't be right - calling a pot-bet on turn, and folding to a pot-bet on the river when an offsuit deuce comes. It means you made a mistake on one of the streets

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just because this is the case doesn't mean we can't use new information to make a better decision. the fact that he maintained aggression on the river is a pretty good indicator that he has us beat and has a great hand (definitely a stronger indicator than his flop or his turn bet).

just saying, while it may be the case that we made a mistake by calling the turn, it doesn't mean we have to compound that by calling the river, given new information.

[TomHimself]

raising the turn pretty much commits u imo

[dmk]

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I would call the 500 and call almost any bet on the flop. Do you want to risk it all with AJ? If you call and fold the river, you still have 1750...better than nothing.


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That can't be right - calling a pot-bet on turn, and folding to a pot-bet on the river when an offsuit deuce comes. It means you made a mistake on one of the streets

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just because this is the case doesn't mean we can't use new information to make a better decision. the fact that he maintained aggression on the river is a pretty good indicator that he has us beat and has a great hand (definitely a stronger indicator than his flop or his turn bet).

just saying, while it may be the case that we made a mistake by calling the turn, it doesn't mean we have to compound that by calling the river, given new information.

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i agree, calling the river can't be good. but before you call the turn you should ask yourself "if he bets the pot again, can i call?" if not, what cards do you want to hit to be able to make a call. i honestly can't think of any. this is why i would fold the turn.

this also shows why it pays to be aggressive. if you raise the flop, you aren't put in this situation. the hand basically ends there.

and regarding you're comment about not folding TPTK, that might work for you in a $10-$50, but it is certainly a leak when you have 125BB and someone OOP firing pot-sized bets into you on an uncoordinated board.

[stevepa]

Alright, I guess the turn wasn't interesting. I think Fireball's reply sums it up, all I can do is call. I've shown no strength whatsoever, so I can't fold and I'm either way ahead or way behind, so raising probably isn't good. I think the river is fairly interesting, hopefully I'll get some replies.

Third or fourth hand of the tournament, no one has really done anything so stacks are all around 2500 and I have basically no reads.

Button (HERO) 2500
SB 2500
BB 2500

Blinds (10/20)

Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and raises to 60. SB and BB both call.

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Pot(180)

SB bets 180, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Pot (540)

SB bets 500, Hero calls

River: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Pot (1540)

SB bets 1180, Hero...?

What kind of range of hands bets the pot (or close to it) on every street? Raising seems more than a little crazy so call/fold?

Thanks,

Steve