Anyone watch "30 days" of FX?

[MMMMMM]

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If the minimum wage were to be raised significantly, there will be fewer jobs. So it's a trade-off.
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Nearly every salaried job out there has yearly adjustments to the cost of living. I've been working for 15 years and have never NOT held a job that didn't include a yearly wage adjustment.

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Poker dealer does not have an adjustment.

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Meanwhile, the minimum wage has not risen in 7 years.

Furthermore... some studies have shown that your statement is wrong:

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My statement included the word significantly. I'm not talking about minor increases.

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Many people have no choice. I find it amusing when people think that there are always better jobs available to anyone who wants them if they only look for them.

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Heh. How ironic coming from you who apparently have never worked a minimum wage job or been broke in your life.

When I lived in Maine, in the Autumn of '79, I couldn't find a job AT ALL. As I said, Washingtom County had about the highest unemployment in the entire country (and maybe still does). So I dug clams in the icy mud flats and sold them to the local clam company. I was lucky to make around $25 a day. And some days in early winter it was impossible to even do that due to the weather. And your hands got numb even with the insulated waterproof gloves.

Finally I found the job on construction: a bust-ass, minimum wage laborer's job. I hitchhiked and walked ten miles each way to work IN THE COLDEST FRIGGIN' WINTER YOU EVER SAW. And that's how I bought groceries and did laundry too: carrying a great sack on my back for ten miles each way. And often I had to walk much or most of the way--sometimes even the full 20 miles in a day--as well as loading and carting around bricks and mortar for the masons all day.

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Your situation is not necessarily the same as others. You took time off and spent a few hundred dollars to learn a trade. Some people don't have the luxury of taking time off, they don't have a few hundred dollars to spend because they're already in debt, etc. They may live in areas where they don't have the opportunities you do. etc.

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I learned half the art of window-cleaning on my own time while I was working bussing tables. It only took around $200 to start. Hell it might have even been less at first although I added equipment as my clientele grew.

Young people today could do similarly. There are lots of windows that need to be cleaned, lots of lawns that need to be mowed, lots of leaves that need to be raked, lots of painting that needs to be done.

Before the Pizaa Hut and window-cleaning, when I lived in rural Maine, the unemployment rate was around the highest in the entire country (Washington County). I had a minimum wage job and come summer (seasonal work in a fish factory) I was able to work 84 hrs./week to save money on it. Which is exactly what I did. Which I did WHILE WALKING AND HITCHHIKING TEN MILES EACH WAY BACK AND FORTH TO WORK EVERY DAY. This was after a winter/spring of being close to broke and barely getting by on another minimum wage job at age 18.

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Everyone doesn't have the skills/brains/opportunities/options/education that you do.

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Come on, how much education/skills/education did it take learn to squeegee storefront windows? I taught myself a bit, practicing cheap for a few stores while working bussing tables, then saw I could get more stores as clients so I quit my job. No rocket science or silver spoon there. You're barking up the wrong tree

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Some people have to take the crappy job that is available to them.

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Which is exactly what I did when I was 18 and part of 19. I worked as a mason-tender on contruction, a roofer's helper, a fish-fileting-machine cleaner, and later in a Pizza Hut in another part of the country bussing tables (and then I quit to do the window-cleaning route thing). The point is, nobody has to stay stuck in minimum wage FOREVER.

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The idea is that these people working these jobs shouldn't be below poverty.

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Yeah, that's the "idea". The truth is that unless they take some initiative to get out of poverty it isn't going to happen. And you can't just legislate away poverty by doing things like raising the minimum wage.


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Or you can take the temporary route of working two jobs or lots of overtime to save some money
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Why do assume people working near minimum wage aren't already doing this.


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If you work 80 hours a week for a while and live frugally you will save money even at minimum wage. Something young people are quite capable of doing (I did it so I know).

Kurto, you seem to believe the standard liberal class-warfare dogma and myth. I guess that's what they teach in college. But it just isn't true. Yes it greatly sucks being broke or earning very little but diligence and initiative will take care of that in time. Nothing different than when our ancestors came to this country and had to bust their butts for a while and live frugally. The only thing different is that it's a lot easier to get out of poverty now than it was say a couple hundred years ago.

Why am I telling you all this? Because I think you're bright enough to consider rethinking some of your preconceptions (about a place you've never been), and I guess because it does me some good personally to review all this. It makes me appreciate poker a lot more and makes me ashamed that I spend money regularly on fairly expensive food. Time to reevaluate: I'm not going to spend another nickel on anything I don't have to for quite a while. I could use the practice and discipline again.

The cure for poverty is just this: I'll link it in my following post. It's truer than you might guess and is beautiful as well. And I'm ashamed to think that today I have slipped so far today from the timeless and priceless principles I used to practice and hold dear when I was broke and truly struggling.

[MMMMMM]

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/...loa/bf1758.htm

[MMMMMM]

YES raising the minimum wage somewhat may not have a bad effect on the overall economy. That isn't the point. The point is, the more you raise the minimum wage (especially beyond a certain point), the fewer jobs will be offered--especially by Mom & Pop type operations.

I agree, it may not be readily apparent if the wage is only slightly raised--but raise it from where it is now to a full "living wage" and lots of small biz owners will just work more overtime themselves rather than shell out that kind of money for more menial labor.

If I ran an ice-cream stand or pizza parlor, I sure as hell wouldn't hire that extra employee I had been considering if it was a marginal decision in the first and THEN they raised the minimum wage substantially. Screw it, I'd just do the extra work myself.

Also, how do you put SO MUCH faith in one study? Jeez. Studies can err, you know--or be conducted by those with an agenda who find some way to influence or slant things. That's not unknown in this world, you know.

Just think supply and demand and you will see that there has to be an inverse relationship to at least some extent.

If you DOUBLED the minimum wage, do you really think there would be just as many minimum wage jobs available? How about TRIPLED it? So you see there has to be an inverse relkationship in number of jobs and level minimum wage--at least to some extent and at some wage level.

[kurto]

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Poker dealer does not have an adjustment.



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I've never been a poker dealer. I said every job I'VE held.

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Heh. How ironic coming from you who apparently have never worked a minimum wage job or been broke in your life.


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I think you're misusing the word ironic. Because I've never been broke doesn't mean I don't know people worse off then myself, it doesn't mean I can't see and read about the plight of others, I can read studies, documentaries, etc.

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So I dug clams in the icy mud flats and sold them to the local clam company. I was lucky to make around $25 a day. And some days in early winter it was impossible to even do that due to the weather. And your hands got numb even with the insulated waterproof gloves.

Finally I found the job on construction: a bust-ass, minimum wage laborer's job. I hitchhiked and walked ten miles each way to work IN THE COLDEST FRIGGIN' WINTER YOU EVER SAW. And that's how I bought groceries and did laundry too: carrying a great sack on my back for ten miles each way. And often I had to walk much or most of the way--sometimes even the full 20 miles in a day--as well as loading and carting around bricks and mortar for the masons all day.


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Now imagine doing all that while having to support a wife with 2 kids.

The fact that you had a rough period and overcame it does not mean that your experience is possible for everyone.

BTW- Just for a shared experience... I too worked at Pizza Hut. Though I was a pizza chef (yes... they called us chefs lol) We made probably 1/3 of what the waitresses made. Our restaurant was sexist though... all the waitstaff (except for the manager, of course) were women. Men belonged in the kitchen. Now that is ironic!)

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If you work 80 hours a week for a while and live frugally you will save money even at minimum wage. Something young people are quite capable of doing (I did it so I know).


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You keep thinking your experience as an 18 years is applicable to everyone. Were you paying rent, trying to clothe and feed children, paying medical bills, etc?

And having to work 80 hours a week to survive.. is hardly a living.

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Kurto, you seem to believe the standard liberal class-warfare dogma and myth.

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Now who's being ironic.

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I guess that's what they teach in college

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No.

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But it just isn't true. Yes it greatly sucks being broke or earning very little but diligence and initiative will take care of that in time.

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I guess it must be true.

You repeat faulty assertions, and now you accuse me of all sorts of rubbish.

You claim its not a living wage, various states DEFINE it as a living wage.

You say hardly anyone other then a few part timers and college students work those jobs... our government showed "In 1999, 26.8% of the workforce earned poverty-level wages, an increase from 23.7% in 1979."

You keep saying wrong things and then accusing me of not knowing how it is.

You take YOUR personal experience and then conclude what was true for you as a single 18 year must be true for everyone else.

You repeat the RW myth that increasing a minimum wage will hurt small businesses and decrease employment... when recent studies have shown the opposite.

yeah... the millions of people in poverty are all lazy and just need to learn to mow some lawns and squeegee some windows and they'll make a decent living.

come on.

[kurto]

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The point is, the more you raise the minimum wage (especially beyond a certain point), the fewer jobs will be offered--especially by Mom & Pop type operations.


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You're missing the results of the studies. No such thing happened the last times they raised it.

Furthermore... you say "especially beyond a certain point"... well currently, the minimum wage has GONE DOWN since it hasn't kept up with inflation/cost of living. For you to argue against the Min Wage being tied to the Cost of living.. you're actually arguing that people should earn LESS money each year.

Sheesh, you're exhausting.

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I agree, it may not be readily apparent if the wage is only slightly raised--but raise it from where it is now to a full "living wage"

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Isn't min wage currently below the poverty level?

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Also, how do you put SO MUCH faith in one study? Jeez.

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I referred to two studies and the other poster in this thread referred to a third.

You on the hand are putting faith in unproven dogma.

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Studies can err, you know--or be conducted by those with an agenda who find some way to influence or slant things.

[/ QUOTE ] The city of Chicago's agenda was to improve their economy. They wanted to insure that a min wage increase wasn't detrimental.

Do you consider that the people who oppose the minwage increase might have their own agenda?

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If you DOUBLED the minimum wage, do you really think there would be just as many minimum wage jobs available? How about TRIPLED it?

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And here you go nutty... most people suggest keeping the minwage in line with inflation/SOL increases... you're now pretending that people are suggesting something ridiculous, when in reality, the suggestion is to keep the minwage where its been at in REAL DOLLAR value.

You're actually fighting for a diminishing minimum wage.

[MMMMMM]

We're crossing meanings here.

I don't think it's a big deal if the minimum wage is raised on some sort of indexed scale based on things like average salary increases or cost of living.

I'm just saying that raising it has an inverse relationship with number of jobs offered --which may not show up with just a small indexed raise or whatever, but WOULD show up if the minimum wage was boosted to like $12/hr. or whatever might be considered a "living wage".

If you agree with that, I don't think we disagree.

All that said, I think there probably shouldn't even be a minimum wage. But that's another topic.

[tolbiny]

If this interests you Try reading "Nickled and Dimed"- about a journalist who attempts to find work (over a year period) without using any credentials. I believe she used her High school diploma- but its been a while since i have read it.

[kurto]

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I don't think it's a big deal if the minimum wage is raised on some sort of indexed scale based on things like average salary increases or cost of living.

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lol Then we are in agreement. I have never suggested anything more then this.

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All that said, I think there probably shouldn't even be a minimum wage. But that's another topic.

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The point of a min wage is to keep workers, at the very least, around the poverty line (as a minimum) and, just as important, to prevent exploitation.

I have no problem with this. I don't believe people or businesses are so altruistic that having laws to prevent exploitation aren't unnecessary.

[slamdunkpro]

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So,.... you saw the show or not?

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Yes, I saw it.

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He suggested no social programs in the show

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I never said he did on the show I'm basing that on several interviews he's given.

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I've just read two studies: one academic and one done by the city of Chicago

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Well here in the real world - I'm here to tell you that as a small business owner MMMMMM's got it right if the minimum wage is raised I'll just have to put a few hours of overtime in and not hire a summer student. I know a lot of real world business people who think the same.

Dan Akroyd said it best in ghost busters " You've never worked in the private sector - they expect resuts!"

(The You is for all those Ivory tower academics who do these studies - mostly with a taxpayer grant)

[slamdunkpro]

See my response to Kurto