Is live 2/4 hold 'em really -EV?

[PokerCat69]

[ QUOTE ]
Come on Steam...

If you haven't figured out that the No Fold Em Hold Em games are THE most profitable...what have you been doing on the forums during the last year? Trying to find a game where people respect your raises? How did you get through SSHE and miss this point? Comparing low stakes hold em (where skills matter) to an inherently random and -EV game like Bingo is more wrong than the proverbial two boys in a hot tub.

I'd KILL to have the Caesars 10/20 have 8 to the flop and 4 to the river (though sometimes it's not far off). We all get pissed when the J3o rivers a gutshot to beat our AA, but these are THE MOST PROFITABLE PEOPLE TO PLAY AGAINST. This is so elementary, so basic, I feel like I'm wasting my time since what you wrote is generally the sentiment expressed by new posters who don't have a clue.

You have to know better than this.

[/ QUOTE ]
If someone can't handle their emotions then endless suckouts will drive them into a rage, and playing on tilt will take a heavy toll on ones bankroll. To say that games with 8 guys to the flop is +EV is incorrect for some people. (short tempered)
If they can keep their emotions in check and play solid poker, the game is +EV without a doubt.

[steamboatin]

Now, Bigdaddydvo, I like you a lot and I respect your opinion on most issues, but you need to log a few hours of live $2-4 and come back to this thread.

At no time did I say that $2-4 wasn't beatable. You go play some $2-4 live poker and if it doesn't feel like playing Bingo, I'll buy you another beer. This post was all about what I enjoyed playing.

I love it when Caesar's 10-20 is eight to the flop and four or five cold calling early posistion raises, but that is completely different than playing live $2-4.

Have you ever actually played $2-4 live? I know you played the $5-10 and moved up to $10-20 at Caesar's but I think it is possible that you are discussing a game that you have little experience playing.

Don't confuse Party $2-4 with live $2-4 they are not even closely related.

[steamboatin]

You guys gotta work on your reading skills, I didn't say it couldn't be beat or wasn't +EV, I said it sucked and I didn't like to play it.

[TM1212]

[ QUOTE ]
Come on Steam...

If you haven't figured out that the No Fold Em Hold Em games are THE most profitable...what have you been doing on the forums during the last year? Trying to find a game where people respect your raises? How did you get through SSHE and miss this point? Comparing low stakes hold em (where skills matter) to an inherently random and -EV game like Bingo is more wrong than the proverbial two boys in a hot tub.

I'd KILL to have the Caesars 10/20 have 8 to the flop and 4 to the river (though sometimes it's not far off). We all get pissed when the J3o rivers a gutshot to beat our AA, but these are THE MOST PROFITABLE PEOPLE TO PLAY AGAINST. This is so elementary, so basic, I feel like I'm wasting my time since what you wrote is generally the sentiment expressed by new posters who don't have a clue.

You have to know better than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

he knows that he simply said he doesnt like the play there. thats y he put in all the warnings about it not being a cry baby post. the varience is often too much for people that and 6 dollars an hour max isnt exactly worth playing live. 5-10 or higher baby

[TM1212]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hate it because it is endless suckout after suckout. It is more like playing Bingo instead of poker. When everyone calls with any two regardless of raises, posistion or any consideration of the odds, the game gets reduced to whoever gets lucky enough to have the best hand wins.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that you win in these games because you bet and raise when you have the best of it (including your draws), and check/call/fold when you don't, right? Your opponents will lose because they won't value-bet their 2 pair on the river because a runner-runner straight just came in; they won't bet/raise the flop with a flush draw; they won't raise AKo preflop; etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


he freaking nos... did you guys even read his post.

[steamboatin]

One more time for the people that do not read the entire thread.

[ QUOTE ]
It is beatable because the players are really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a quote from my original reply. Then Bigdaddydvo asked me why I didn't like $2-4 live poker and I told him why I don't like it.

Now we get another, Hey Steamboatin, you should know better thread. This [censored] gets old after a while.

If you guys would bother to read the entire thread, I probabaly wouldn't look near as stupid as you all seem to believe.

[Bigdaddydvo]

You know I have nothing but love for you Steam.

I want to see you improve and start cleaning up at the Caesars Aquarium more than anyone. That's why I don't like seeing even the mere mention of something like loose passive games are frustrating, etc. You should be far beyond that point. Nothing more than some constructive criticism

I do, however, appreciate the clarification on your post.

[KSOT]

[ QUOTE ]
Good luck surviving on your 1 BB/hour.

[/ QUOTE ]


...

Who are you even talking to?

[radek2166]

1BB per hour sucks. Not that it is not winning the thing is. I read the original poster saying he has won everytime he plays.

The thing is the rake and tips whip you. My best night @2/4 in Vegas I was up close to 400 in about 6 hours. probably would have been closer to 600 with no tips for drinks or dealers and, no rake.

Then you have the inevitable run of bad cards and BOOM the 1 BB per hour is -2 BB per hour.

[MicroBob]

some people don't like such games because they do get kind of stupid sometimes regardless of whether they already know they are +EV or not.

I do think that steamboatin got himself in a little hot-water with the "+EV nits" (for lack of better term) when he mentioned it being like 'bingo' and not being 'real' poker or something like that.
I too would kill for games like that at my favorite limits.


The 20/40 at the Tunica Horseshoe frequently plays like that incredibly enough. I'm not quite comfortable on 20/40 (although I played some 15/30 in Vegas) and I'm especially afraid of trying that game because I KNOW the swings will be wacky in spite of my advantage.

Same thing happened on a 15/30 game at Bellagio when I was there.
One guy comes to the table with $4k (???) and is super drunk and loud at 4am or so. Semi-famous in the Bellagio room from what I gather. 15/30 was too low and boring for him and he kept yapping about wanting to play in a 'real' game etc. He raised and re-raised all these different hands. Roughly VP-95, PFR-75 I suspect.
But he wasn't terrible post-flop....he chased, but actually COULD get out of the way.
He effectively turned the game into a 30/60 game practically because he was SO aggressively nutty.
I was already up big on the table so it wasn't too bad when he sucked out on my with his 92o runner-runner....but I still wasn't completely comfortable with it.


So I can think of examples when I'm actually a little LESS comfortable playing with a maniac....but this comes when I am playing at just about the very peak of my limit-comfortability.


2/4 is obviously much lower than that.


I haven't played 2/4 in Tunica (someone mentioned that they have this at Sam's Town).
But I have played plenty of 3/6 at Grand and Gold Strike as well as 4/8 at Horseshoe.
I don't think it's THAT much different.
I also played a few orbits of 2/4 limit at the Palms while waiting for a tournament.

So I feel I have kind of been there...and I don't think it's THAT much more bingo-ish than the games being described. And if the games ARE even more bingo-ish elsewhere than sign me up!! (as long as I'm comfortable with the rake-structures).



I've been as hard on steamboatin as anyone on these forums in the past imo (stuff like short buy-in's and what-not) but


I do think this is a situation where it's a combination of steam being partly misunderstood as well as steam coming dangerously TOO close to saying the stuff like "i want to play where they respect my raises" (and other newbie type stuff) that we know steam is, in reality, smarter than.


Anyway - probably time to turn the page on this one.
Steam gets it for the most part imo...although I think many of us believe he would be better if he learned how to beat such loose-wild games as well as the 5/10 and 10/20 games that he wants to beat as well.


To the original discussion - yup, rake and tips etc make 2/4 pretty damn tough regardless of the horrible competition.


Hey gang - WSOP-circuit is coming to Tunica in August (Aug 10-24 or something I believe).
Who's coming??
(new thread for this topic?? why bother, I was on a roll anyway).