Turn - What thinkest thou?

[McGahee]

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To all those in the call camp, is it really worth risking 2 BBs to win 4 BBs with a hand this marginal?

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No - I would fold after further consideration. I think the micro "you're weak/tight if you fold ever because Ed Miller said so" forum has scarred me for life.

[BWebb]

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To all those in the call camp, is it really worth risking 2 BBs to win 4 BBs with a hand this marginal?

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No - I would fold after further consideration. I think the micro "you're weak/tight if you fold ever because Ed Miller said so" forum has scarred me for life.

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LOL, I convinced you to change your mind while I was convincing myself that calling down was best.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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To all those in the call camp, is it really worth risking 2 BBs to win 4 BBs with a hand this marginal?

[/ QUOTE ]

No - I would fold after further consideration. I think the micro "you're weak/tight if you fold ever because Ed Miller said so" forum has scarred me for life.

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LOL, I convinced you to change your mind while I was convincing myself that calling down was best.

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Wait no, call. Yeah, I am John Kerry squared. I guess it really helps to be a math person in this spot, which I am certainly not. One thing I'm not taking back is that raising is the worst option.

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
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To all those in the call camp, is it really worth risking 2 BBs to win 4 BBs with a hand this marginal?

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No - I would fold after further consideration. I think the micro "you're weak/tight if you fold ever because Ed Miller said so" forum has scarred me for life.

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Yup, I never fold anymore. I call down because I always have at least an overcard or backdoor draw of some sort. If I make top, bottom, or middle pair with any kind of kicker I have two pair and trip outs, and the pot is always big enough to justify continuing. I used to be a rock, now I'm loose-passive!

[BWebb]

I fold the turn. If BB has an ace, you have zero outs to win and the best you can do it chop. To call down, you are getting 4.5:1 pot odds. Like I said, if he has an ace it is really about 2.25:1. Since he led the flop into the big field, I think he has at least an ace. Fold.

[Scotch78]

I agree with just calling the turn, but what about raising the flop? I'd feel confident folding the turn unimproved if the SB plays for two cold (would he play KQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] like this?) or the BB re-raises, so I'm not too worried about spewing. But more importantly, the two hands that affect our equity the most are a bigger ace and the flush draw. Raising now potentially saves us .5 BB against a better ace and charges the flushdraw, whereas calling down or raising the turn is essentially playing to just one of those hands.

Scott

[damaniac]

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I agree with just calling the turn, but what about raising the flop? I'd feel confident folding the turn unimproved if the SB plays for two cold (would he play KQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] like this?) or the BB re-raises, so I'm not too worried about spewing. But more importantly, the two hands that affect our equity the most are a bigger ace and the flush draw. Raising now potentially saves us .5 BB against a better ace and charges the flushdraw, whereas calling down or raising the turn is essentially playing to just one of those hands.

Scott

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I dislike. This is WA/WB/tied, even multiway. The guy in the middle already called so no forcing him out anyway, and the one guy who hasn't is either being soooper-sneaky with a monster or much more likely has a hand that is drawing to 2 or fewer outs, so we'd love for him to peel. Pot is big enough that I'm taking my hand to the next street and probably to showdown, either from my chances of being good/splitting or from spiking a 3. I guess you could think about folding the flop b/c your A beats only A2, but Ed Miller once said not to fold Top pair no kicker in a large pot for just one bet. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Nick C]

I'd call, but there is an interesting dynamic here. Unless SB is slowplaying 99 or the case aces or is playing passive with a flush draw, it looks like he has a big pair. That means if SB has AT, we effectively have 5 outs (10 outs to a chop), unless BB folds, in which case we'll pick up a couple more. So against AT specifically, we have the odds to call the turn, but calling the turn and then calling again on the river no matter what falls would not be profitable.

Then again, you may already be chopping and may just need to dodge 5 cards. And you could be ahead of BB's flush draw or nines-up or JJ. I think he's probably got an ace, but unless 2/4 has changed since I played it regularly, if BB was betting a draw or a hand worse than top pair on the flop, he's betting that same hand again on the turn into three flop callers.

I'd call twice more, unless SB woke up with a turn checkraise (in which case I'd turbo-fold), but if, say, an 8 fell on the river, I'd wonder if I was giving my money away when BB bet again and I called again.

[BWebb]

After crunching some numbers, it looks like calling down is best. However, the third player involved adds an interesting dynamic to the hand. Interesting hand, I'll be thinking about this one for awhile.

[QTip]

Good discussion so far imo.

Folding the turn is bad imo, and I say that instead of "not good".

So, I was inbetween calling and raising. I think there's merit for both; however, I feel calling is better.

1. I get a chance to see if sb is being dumb with a huge hand for 1 BB.

2. sb might call for 1 with a much worse hand giving me more value if I chop with BB.

3. I avoid a 3-bet.

I thought there was some merit in a raise if BB was betting a worse hand or a draw.