Questions for the pro's on improving SNG returns

[DarkKnight]

You asked what return you should expect so I imagine that is important to you. You need to see the math for yourself so you can convince yourself not to be afraid of the $10+1.

A decent ROI for a level with 10% Entry Fee is 30%
At $5+0.50 (not available at Party) you would earn
30% x %5.50 = $1.65 per tournament
the extra $0.50 party get come out from there
giving you an earn of $1.15 per.
Convert back to ROI = $1.15 / $6 = 19%

So you are losing almost 11% ROI by paying the extra rake.

Put another way you are giving up 30+% of your earn for the luxury of staying at $5+1.

If you are only a 15% ROI player then you are giving up over 60% of your earn.

Get out of $5+1 ASAP. This will do more for your game than any other single change.

[Prickly Pete]

DarkKnight is absolutely right. Put another way, a slightly better than average player might get 1 first, 1 second and 1 third in every 9 tourneys. At the 5+1, they'd lose $4. At the 10+1, they'd make $1.

How can you afford not to play the 10+1s?

And like some others have mentioned, if the bankroll won't allow have the the 5s, go to Stars or UB and save on the rake.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
The win/loss rate should not change much, if at all, from $5 to $10 SNGs. The same bunch of morons play both...
al

[/ QUOTE ]

I've wondered about this. While the argument for increased ROI at the 10+1 vs 5+1 is unassailable, I think something else does come into play, in at least some limited situations.

Suppose for a moment that a player (me) has just been KILLING the 5+1's... placing in the money well over 60% of the time, and taking 1st more than 33% of the times in the money. While I am sacrificing some ROI by sticking at 5+1 to do this, my EV is through the damn roof based on previous success -- possibly (probably?) overcoming the loss of ROI to stay at the lower buy-in.

Now, I don't have a whole lot of experience at 10+1... played a few and done just fine, but certainly not the same rate of success. So the question is this: what should I expect to face as far as increased skill at 10+1 that I haven't been seeing at 5+1, were I to move up? That has to be part of the discussion, in light of the advice you folks are giving. Saying the ROI is better probably isn't enough to justify it. I'm playing on Paradise, btw - though I do play on Party occasionally as well (hate the interface).

As a second question, I wonder what kind of bankroll I ought to keep if I do make this change? I usually keep 14-20 buy-ins on hand in the bank at the 5+1 level (cash out whenever the bankroll doubles), and I expect I'd need to keep more $ in there when making the jump.

Thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[wayabvpar]

At PP, I don't remember any appreciable difference in the skill level of the average opponent (been a few months since I played there. however). There is a slight decrease in total retards at the $10 level at Stars (not as many "all in with Q4o" maniacs), but they are still reasonably soft (except that 2 table one on Thursday nights...that is brutal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ).

I do see a significant difference between the $10 and $20 at Stars, with the $30 not too much different than the $20.

[Profit]

as far as the 10+1's to the 5+.50's on pokerstars. Yes every once in a while i do run into a tourney where the competition is quite a bit better than your typical 5 or $10 SNG. However overall, i find that the quality of competetion isn't any better at 10+1 than it is at 5+.50. Quite frankly i can't even comment at one thing that sticks out in my mind as far as difficulty change. Once you go beyone 10+1 however, you will see some change.

It's the smallest jump in SNG's in regard to the buyin, so that is to be expected. Most ppl don't really think twice about the extra $5, hence i feel the competetion isn't any better. Once you get to the 20's and beyond, people will be a little more hesitant to put that cash up.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
what should I expect to face as far as increased skill at 10+1 that I haven't been seeing at 5+1

[/ QUOTE ]

nothing.

The big difference is that you're paying 20% vig at $5+$1 and only 10% at $10+$1.

Just quit cashing out for a while and you'll be fine bankroll wise. I prefer at least 20 buy-ins but more would be better. You may just be running good with 60% in the money, but then at that level the competition is so bad....

al

[Sheriff Fatman]

I'd agree with the earlier posts regarding having at least 20 buy-ins and avoiding $5+1 events.

As for skill levels, I think the competition is generally weak at Party at least upto the $30+3 level. I doubt that there is much difference at all between 5+1 and 10+1.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far with regard to 2 table play is that it can get a bit hectic if you are short-handed on both tables at the same time. Depending on your experience level you might want to consider staggering the starts to try to avoid this.

Another thing to consider might be focusing on Limit SnG's at Party in preference to No-Limit. Although most players here prefer No-Limit games, my ROI is actually higher in Limit games at Party than No-Limit. I find it helps to counter the low starting chip number as you get more play per event (although the overall time taken is about the same) and also gives you more opportunity to play drawing hands when the opportunity arises. However, the key advantage is that it will also help you improve your ring game play, which you say currently pisses away your SnG winnings.

This will probably contradict what many others feel but I'd suggest giving the limit games a try - for an inexperienced player I'd suggest that they would be more forgiving and, at Party at least, are still populated by many clueless players who will happily donate chips to you with all manner of hands.

Sheriff

[benkath1]

Man, I am in the EXCACT same boat. I win SNG and piss it away at ring games. I have only played SNGs for the last week, but am in the money 6 out of 12. I know that isn't very many tourneys, but are those good numbers, or am I just lucky? Two first, one second, three thirds. 5+.5 at stars.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

are those good numbers, or am I just lucky?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and yes.

I haven't played many one-table SNGs so I can't say for sure but 50% in the money seems about the best that could ever be obtained in the long run, I would imagine. A very likely explanation for your results is that you're both playing well and running good. Long may it continue! But don't be discouraged by downswings should they come along: we all have them.

Guy.

[benkath1]

Thanks for the advice. I just hit 2 more last night [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Kind of seems easy, but I am probably running good like you said.
Ben