do u guys use Harringtons' M value?

[splashpot]

If you play at a site without antes, looking at M and your stack in terms of BB is essentially the same thing. They both measure how many rounds you can last before you're blinded out.

[valenzuela]

thats all?? man ive been using M for years.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
thats all?? man ive been using M for years.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...exactly

[Nicholasp27]

M is not the same as thinking in terms of how many bbs you have, as M is sb+bb (+ antes, if applicable)

800 chips, 100/200 level
=4bbs
=2.66 M


also, he says u should use EFFECTIVE M, so you multiply M by the % of people left at table...so your M is halved if there are only 5 left...but in a SNG, that doesn't work too well, because

5 people left

you have 4000 chips
blinds are 200/400

M=6.67
effective M = 3.33

you really aren't in the red zone with 4k chips with 5 people left in an 8k chip tourney...that's why sngs don't use M (especially effective M) as well as deep-stack MTTs


also, we use ICM to guide our decisions when u are <10bbs, so no need for M when ICM is more accurate and applicable to sngs

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
M is not the same as thinking in terms of how many bbs you have, as M is sb+bb (+ antes, if applicable)

800 chips, 100/200 level
=4bbs
=2.66 M

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct in that they are not the exact same thing. Obviously, 4 bbs is not 4 M in your example. However, they are tools used for the same thing in that your level of aggressiveness in a given situation should be the same if you had an M of 2.66 or 4 bbs.

Think of them both as aggressiveness meters that give you the same answer if they're calibrated correctly. Which meter you use is a matter of personal preference.

ICM has nothing directly in common with M or # of bbs. M (or # of bbs) can indicate if you should think about ratcheting up your aggression level. ICM will tell you if a move you're contemplating is likely to be correct based on $EV.

[Nicholasp27]

my point is that when you have <10bbs, you should be using ICM to determine your push/fold strategy, so M doesn't really apply to sngs (at least in party structure)...we use icm and opp calling/pushing ranges to determine how aggressive we can be in pushing/calling based on if it's +$ev to make that move compared to folding based on ranges and icm value of outcomes

[Jbrochu]

I understand your point. My point is that while you might use ICM to determine push/fold when your bbs<10, an "M user" might use ICM to determine push/fold strategy when their M < 5.

(Much like Americans choose to wear a warm jacket when it's 32 degrees, and Europeans wear a warm jacket when its 0 degrees.)

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
M is not the same as thinking in terms of how many bbs you have, as M is sb+bb (+ antes, if applicable)

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the same thing in a nonante game. You're simply adjusting the relative numbers, and M is better because it has the ability to take into account the antes when that situation comes up (and missing small blinds).

Of course, number of BBs is easier to figure out and since there are no antes in Party SNGs, using BBs is equivalent and is what most people use.

[Nicholasp27]

i don't see how sb+bb=bb

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't see how sb+bb=bb

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My point is that its all relative. Whether you push when you have <10xBB or <6.66M doesn't really matter in a Party SNG, they are representing the same thing. And of course, M is more accurate for cases where the small blind is missing or there are antes.

So saying that M has no value in SNGs really makes no sense. It's simply common convention to use BBs.