Free Tables and Learning (first post)

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]

If I can't learn, or to put it another way, "learn how NOT to play", I should not play "for free".

I DID learn how NOT to play from playing free tables, and it DID cost me!

Let me rephrase that: I did learn how not to WIN by playing free.

I know this is a harsh board, and I accept criticism - welcome it!


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so criticism you will have [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Your logic on this point is a bit wrong, but so it is also for the majority of 2+2-posters, so you are in good company [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

If you learned how not to play from playing play money, it shows that you have some lack of the fundamental understandings of poker (here you are also in good company [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). The clue to learn, is to play and watch how your opponent play (his fundamental strategy, his adjustment towards you and other players etc.) and then develop a method to beat this player(s). Later, when you encounter the same type of player(s) you can use the same method. However, when you step up (as you did from play money to real money) you will encounter a combination of players you have already learned to beat, but in addition you will encounter new types of player(s) and thus you have to think through the fundamentals again to develop a method to beat this kind of player(s).

So what you learned was not wasted or damaging, but insufficient and needs to be completed with additional understanding.

Your error may also be, that you are looking for a winning, systematic way to play poker which you can use to beat subsequently higher level. But there does NOT exist one, regardless of how many tries to tell you otherwise. New players, new levels, new games, new structures, new trends among the players etc. will always demand from you that you adjust your strategy.

why learn to play better poker for free when you can learn to play better poker making a small profit. sit down at a .50/1.00 limit game and learn that way. as long as you are not an idiot you should make money in the process.

Yup.

Can.

I have three problems.

1) I sometimes play when I drink (ooops).

2) I win, and then I play above my level. (very oops)

3) I lose, but it's not my fault! They were soooted! And how could you call with that hand?!

OK, your point is good, and what I will do - to improve my game - is this:

1) choose a level and a game that suits me. [I'll expand on this in another post - or you can . . . if you play Omaha best, should you play NLHE? . . .]

2) read more, study more, plug leaks

3) manage my bankroll

all very "duhhh" to most of you . . .

but it still begs the Q of my original post which was, "Can you truly learn to be a better poker player by playing 'for nothing'?".

And my answer to that remains: Absolutely !!!

with a qualifier.

If there is something "at risk", even if it's only "pride", it is a valid game. Money is not all of what people play for. For example, note how many people play "for the bracelet" vs. cashing out!

For that matter, me playing "free" is just slightly less than Bill Gates playing 4/8!

I'm going to answer my own rhetorical unstated question of "Can you learn how to play better poker if you only play for free?" and say, "Yes you can!"

But.

TJ

some of my remarks were posted before I wrote in reply to remarks that were posted to the remarks I posted to the remarks I wrote.

I don't even know what I just said.

Y'all are saying some kewl stuff tho. Feel free to kick my ass.

But bear in mind, the more advice you give, the more ammunition you give me when I meet you . . .

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[BlackRain]

I played free money for a long time. At the "highest limits" on stars, SnG and Ring. I wasn't alone. The majority of players on nearly all online poker sites are free money players. The problem for people like you and me, who want to improve our games lies in this. Nearly all of these free money players, are simply not interested in improving their game. They are just there to have a good time and socialize. There is no rhyme or reason to the plays that they make. Every hand is worth playing.
There is no point for us in trying to put our opponent on a hand, there is no point in trying to give our opponent incorrect odds to call, because they will call. In fact, THE WHOLE TABLE WILL CALL. Yay!

While the same can be said for many low limit real money players at least there are some among them who frequent sites like this, pick up a Sklansky book or have a look at their hand histories. At middle limits, the frequency of this picks up and it is obviously very high at the big limits.

All this said, I think it is in your best interest to play for real money if you are interested in improving your game. Whether that be, penny games or $2000 NL, is your choice, but at least one or two people are likely to fold preflop, someone might say something pot odds etc., there is some thinking going on. This in turn, should help you try and sort through and actually put to use some of the info in those 30 books you read! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] GL

"So what you learned was not wasted or damaging, but insufficient and needs to be completed with additional understanding."

As McCloud said [TJ shows his age], "There ya go . . ."

Well put.

My point is still this . . .

You CAN learn at the free tables, IF

if you know what you go there to learn.

I went there to plug leaks in my game.

I chose the "hardest" tables (for me). SNG. Limit HE. Omaha. Even Stud (I suck at stud). NLHE just for amusement (horrid game if nothing's at risk tho').

How Jesus can remember 52 cards . . . .

and I can't even remember sister's birthday . . .

but I digress.

My point was totally whether you can use the free tables to improve your game . . . or not.

I vote: Yes.

For all I know, Gus Hansen or Dolly could learn there.

[Just for fun - for you folks who play PP or EP - type "Gus Hansen" into the chat line. Apparently, it's a profanity!"]

TJ

Blackrain - someday I will learn how to quote posts here . . .

But I'm an old guy . . .

"The majority of players on nearly all online poker sites are free money players. The problem for people like you and me, who want to improve our games lies in this. Nearly all of these free money players, are simply not interested in improving their game. They are just there to have a good time and socialize."

If you play "free" and truly want to learn, you will hit people like you are - folks with some skills. At least folks who want to learn and play the HARDEST folks possible.

I had "a crew" [don't laugh] that were VERY hard to play against. They had read "the books" and could quote them. They simply didn't want to play for "money".

"Winning" was enough of a rush for them. Some of them, and I kid you not, had far more money than some of the "professionals". [IOW, they made FAR more than 3XBB hourly by NOT playing poker!]

But you had to know who they were - AND, having said that, *I* played differently, even tho I played "for free".

I had nothing to lose, and until you have something to lose, i.e., real money - and you play against people who have something "real" to lose, it is a different game.

Even $0.01/$0.02 games play different than "free". It becomes "serious".

But my point remains. HU at a "free" SNG limit tourney is no less difficult than HU at a $1000 buyin. The skill level is lower - sometimes much lower, sometimes not so much.

The adrenalin level is the same.

A. Madsen.

Reread your comments six times. Will read them again.

That's what I came here for.

Thanks!

TJ

"Your error may also be, that you are looking for a winning, systematic way to play poker which you can use to beat subsequently higher level. But there does NOT exist one, regardless of how many tries to tell you otherwise."

Wow!

Guess I wasted a lot of money on them there 30 books . . .

I should start a new thread with that comment - which will keep me up staring at the ceiling tonight . . .

Or I could just start one with "ALL POKER SITES ARE A RIPOFF AND I HAVE PROOF!" - just to get people to look at your comment.

and then quote you.

Your point is excellent, but oddly it adds to mine in a way.

I think it does come down to "experience" and watching how people play hands. I'm sure Mssr. Chan or Layne or Juanda play a K9os different than I will - based on position and players, but they have played a million hands plus.

ALL of us have played/raised with K9os!!! Based on position, chip stack, etc.

I'm merely trying to play the "best" folks I can at a minimal cost to build my "data base" of how folks play certain hands in certain positions - or perhaps more importantly - perhaps MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY - to think about how *I* should play them.

Even playing for "free" forces me to think about every hand I play - forces me to evaluate my hand strength, chips, position, other players.

And oddly enough, that does add to my "experience".

Even B&M tables have idiots no different than the "free" tables. OK, they have to get their own beers, but . . .

Can you learn from playing "for free"?

I think you can - if for no other reason, you must think about every hand you play and why you are playing it. And at that same time, you get to see how other people (and you will meet "them" again) play their cards.

On the flip side, I think it is better to come BACK to a free table to observe it after playing for money than to assume this is how most people play - as I did.

Oops.

I will leave it at that.

TJ

[BTW, Chan would NEVER ask (and said so), "Did you have it?". Made for good drama tho'! And thank you "Rounders" for all the fish!]

May all your fish be live and your flounders be monsters!

You are both correct.

I have the skillz to win at low limit - in limit HE, NLHE, and Ohaha Hi and Hilo.

Just a comment: I can't play stud b/c I can't remember all of the cards folded. Jesus can; I can't. I can fake my way thru stud, and I won a few tourneys, but I hate the game.

Some say you have to play ALL the games to be a "real" poker player, but that's rare. For those who can, kudos!

I think it's better to pick the games you play best. Duhhhh!

If your goal is to win money, play the game that wins you money.

If your goal is to look pretty . . .

Don't ask me for advice!

Ask Hellmouth about his shills (I mean "skills") outside of NLHE tourneys. Especially at limit ring games.

Better yet, ask people who have played him.

But I digress . . .

My "30 book" comment was not to say how "good" I am; it was to say how "bad" I am!

I'm not a "nut peddler" (OK, I do check, call at Om8 sometimes), and I try to vary my game from TAG to LAG to WADB.

I should be better than I am, but I am not, and I have gone back to the "free" tables to improve my game.

To gain experience, to run more hands, to consider once again if KQ or QJ or K9os is a good play here and now.

Of course I realize that this is a "free" table, but is that not much different from a few drunks and a maniac?

Who among us cannot pony up $100 to "play" some poker?

I have a positive balance on two sites (less than $1,000 total tho.

Of course, it's nice to "win" $10 after several hours of play - as I have done playing multiple tables some nights.

But I'm down for the year - have made some very dumbass mistakes - some in NL, some in Om8, and I NEED to up my game!!!

I think I can up my mind playing some free tables, so that's what I'm doing.

OR . . . think about this: If you can't beat the free tables (or tourneys/SNG's) consistently, it's not unrealistic to think that you can't beat money tables consistently.

Correct me if the above statement seems incorrect.