Hell's existence seems incorrect

[Trantor]

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If you actually believe there is even the slightest possibility you would convert through fear, that is something I can't comprehend.

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The human mind is more malleable than you might think. Yes, it is very, very improbable, and I'd be exercising a lot of creativity to come up with a series of situations that would lead to it. Nevertheless, it is not impossible. I'm sure it's happened before. With such phenomenally abstract situations such as these, it is reasonable to at least acknowledge the possibility, no matter how improbable.

May David Sklansky rape your children if you don't understand this.

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I understand and agree that circumstances can lead to conversion and athesits have "seen the light" and you or I could be subject of conversion. I was really getting at the implication that fear could make you (personaly) (or "one" if you like to abstract it) _choose_ to believe for safeties' sake rather than just finding they do believe.

As I said, if there is a fear of damnation how do you choose which religion to adopt as a rational ecercise. In fact the fear would presumably ony get overwhelming after conversion to a given faith so that is the faith you would believe in to avoid damnation. I can't see it working the other way round....all these religions say eternal damnation to non-believers so I'd better pick one to believe in.

[hmkpoker]

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I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.


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When us Catholic types receive the Sacrament of Reconcilliation (confess our sins to receive absolution) your level of Faith is sufficient to have sins resolved...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation. This is called Imperfect Contrition. Repenting because you are sorry that you offended God is called Perfect Contrition . The reason that the former is sufficient is because we are human, and not every one can muster the level of Faith and love of God that the second one demands.

I think that a corrolary to this is that if you believed simply out of fear of the potential consequences of non-belief, your belief is less than ideal but superior to non-belief and gives you a fighting chance in the Lord's eyes.

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If a parent not only casts out, but moreover tortures his once confused child who ran away from home, is this parent worthy of love?

[Jeff V]

I laughed harder than I should have when I read this.

[J. Stew]

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As some of you know, I'm an atheist. And somewhat serious, even proud about it.

However, there are rare occasions every here and then, sometimes when I'm by myself for a long period of time and alone with my thoughts, when I think "man, what if those Christians are right?

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Silent = Listen

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What if God and Heaven and Hell are all true and I'm going to be damned for eternity unless I accept?" The worry (although, I can honestly say, it is minor) gives a brief adrenaline release, I toss it over in my mind for a few seconds, know where and why I stand on things, and then my mind goes on to something else.

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What if you are in hell right now, and heaven is being the awareness that is there when you are silent, or listening?

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In no way is this logically affirmative of Christian beliefs. This happens mostly when I am stressed. Maybe I have a lot of work to do tomorrow or I'm worried about bills; lots of irrational thoughts can occur in a person's mind when he's paranoid. Plus the righteousness and confidence of the believers, the number of the believers, all these things can activate the survival instinct in a person and make him want to do whatever is necessary to escape the potential danger. (Y2K comes to mind)

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When you are stressed, you have worries in your mind. The awareness is the thing that see the fear/worry so the thing that sees the worry cannot worry itself, the awareness that just sees your thoughts just sees them and naturally sees truth because truth is seeing the real or seeing the reality that is the present moment. The awareness only sees truth because the awareness is nothing but the present moment, which is reality.

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I think every atheist, no matter how strong, has a little shred of worry every now and then. Heck, I remember feeling the same way after a fiery discussion/debate from a guest lecturer in my Islamic Philosophy class.

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Yeah, there is no meaning in conceptual belief because concepts are insignificant, delusions. The meaning comes from seeing the emptiness that you are then seeing that everything comes from that nothingness.

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I can confidently say that, in the unlikely event that I were to eventually become a Christian, it would not be out of the love of God (I've never thought of God as anything but a prick for a decade now), it would be out of the fear of eternal damnation. I'd be doing it purely to save my own ass.

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If you try to find God, which is the same as trying to find yourself, out or some fear, you will misinterpret yourself. If you try to be anything, you will not find your Self because you already are your Self, you just think your beliefs about what you are are really you, when it is the absence of beliefs that clears the way for pure seeing, which is to see as God.

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So here's the problem: from what I gather, "God has a plan for us." That is, love him, love his works, love what Jesus did, glorify him out of your love, and you will recieve eternal life. I think the rationale behind creating us (NotReady, help me out with this) was that it brings more glory to God, since we accepted him out of our free will. However, if a person can be threatened into believing in God, then I fail to see how that glorifies him.

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Glorification of God is not the point. Would you glorify yourself? The ego glorifies the self, which is why the common interpreation is to glorify God because there is the misunderstanding about what God is. God is the thing that sees your fears/thoughts.

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Another question is why not non-existence for non-believers? Why doesn't God just obliterate the soul of an atheist upon death? Non-existence is a much, much easier concept to handle...after all, I believe that that (more or less) is my post-mortem fate! Without the terrifying threat of damnation, people would not choose Christianity out of fear.

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Seeing God is realization of Self. Why would Self annihilate Self. I think you're thinking from the man in the sky version of God.

[hmkpoker]

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I think you're thinking from the man in the sky version of God.

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Well DUH.

[J. Stew]

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I think you're thinking from the man in the sky version of God.

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Well DUH.

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Narrow and outdated, but still applicable when seen with a simple mind.

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...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation.

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what abut me? I'm sorry for my sins despite not fearing eternal damnation.

Isn't that better?

chez

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Well, there are wusses and those that aren't. lol

[chezlaw]

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...meaning you're sorry for your sins because you fear eternal damnation.

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what abut me? I'm sorry for my sins despite not fearing eternal damnation.

Isn't that better?

chez

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Well, there are wusses and those that aren't. lol

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[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
at the moment I fear your lot are going to beat the Windies so quickly that I have to play poker for a couple of hours before the England test starts.

chez

Are you trying to find a way to bring up the ashes, in this thread? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Double Down]

Well put. The problem with the Christian idea of God is that to a great extent it makes God a human, with human worries, concerns, and emotions. I mean, we still even refer to God as a he. I'd doubt that God has a dick, let alone anything else that resembles a human being. The humanizing of the force that creates and controls everything is a very narrow minded way to look, and the danger that results is that we treat God as a parent, which creates for a relationship based on a need to appease and please, which leads to punishment for those who don't do that, which leads to fear and forced loyalty, such as how the OP would consider converting just to cover his bases.

No offense, Christians, but the idea of an all powerful God that has ego issues and needs allegiance and love from its creations makes God sound like a whiny neglected housewife. Our concept of God needs to be redefined. In fact, to believe in a God that is capable of wrath and anger sort of contradicts the idea that God is all powerful.

The whole idea about lip service to God in hopes that that'll pass for forgiveness reminds me of a great Ned Flanders quote,
"I don't get it, Reverend. I follow all of the bible, even the parts that contradict the other parts. I even keep kosher, just in case."