Bellagio 30-60

[Jamie Collins]

Hi Tommy - could you elaborate on what you've stated.

Whenever I'm on the other end, as the guy who made the aggressive checkraise, and the opponent does not three bet on the flop with the best hand, I am making money. That's because it's an easy laydown when he raises me on the turn. And it's even easier to just check, and not bet the turn.

1st ?: You are the BB and you check-raise the flop then bet and fold to a raise on the turn having invested 2BB's post-flop. Can it be profitable to check-call the flop & turn here in an attempt to spike your 2nd pair, assuming the cutoff folded? Check-calling is horribly passive so you would have no idea what the bettor has so you would have to call the river. But it only costs you .5BB more (2.5BB check-calling vs. 2BB raising flop/bet-folding turn) in a
6.5BB pot on the turn.
Pros: If you're beat you can attempt to spike a 2nd pair on river.
Bettor may infrequently bet a worse hand.
Cons: You may let in worse hand that beats you on the river.

2nd ?: You said, "And it's even easier to just check, and not bet the turn." Check-raising the flop and then checking the turn seems awfully odd to me. Did I understand this right? Are you intending to then, check-fold or check-call? Or hope for check-check?

Thanks,
Jamie

[D.J.]

You said at the higher limits my hand is no good 90% of the time. I don't think this is so, people will often make more moves in higher limits trying to get you off your hand. I don't feel that this is an automatic laydown 90% of the time b/c a big percentage of the time in higher games the players are full of [censored] trying to bluff their way into winning.

-D.J.

[gaylord focker]

Could be so. But I think in this particular case the player had to have a made hand of some sort, there really didnt look like much of anything to draw at out there. I think when a typical oppenent puts 180 in on the turn he can usually beat Queen with an ace kicker. A very strong player once told that a huge majority of the time when you get checked raised on the turn, or 3 bet on the turn, if you cant play back your hand is usually no good. And even though you cant go laying top pair top kicker down every time it meets some resistance, I think maybe you have to consider doing it here, at least agaist some opponents.

[Tommy Angelo]

Jamie,

ME:Whenever I'm on the other end, as the guy who made the aggressive checkraise, and the opponent does not three bet on the flop with the best hand, I am making money. That's because it's an easy laydown when he raises me on the turn. And it's even easier to just check, and not bet the turn.

YOU: 1st ?: You are the BB and you check-raise the flop then bet and fold to a raise on the turn having invested 2BB's post-flop. Can it be profitable to check-call the flop & turn here in an attempt to spike your 2nd pair, assuming the cutoff folded?"

ME NOW: I suppose it depends a little on what is meant by "profitable." Unless the two courses are exactly tied, then one is more profitable, or less unprofitable, or some difference that we care about, than the other. I think checkcalling the flop and turn is the lesser choice against averagely readable opponents.

YOU: "Check-calling is horribly passive so you would have no idea what the bettor has so you would have to call the river."

ME NOW: Right. Plus it looks bad and feels bad, and there's negative value in that, at least for me. (LGPG!)

YOU: "2nd ?: You said, "And it's even easier to just check, and not bet the turn." [YOU AGAIN:] Check-raising the flop and then checking the turn seems awfully odd to me. Did I understand this right? Are you intending to then, check-fold or check-call? Or hope for check-check?"

ME NOW: Exactly. I don't buy into the "flow" concept. Checkraise on one street, followed by checkfold on the next, is exactly the type of odd play that I feel is surprisingly profitable, surprisingly often, if for no other reason that once routine patterns are established by the player pool at large, going against those patters will be the places to look for profit. I'm not saying I will find money in these strange places. But at least I have a chance to.

Tommy