Another "You make the call" post

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Allowing dealers to muck hands without justification also creates some good cheating opportunites (A and B heads up on river. A has better hand. B is friend of dealer. Dealer mucks A's cards.) A player should protect his cards, but there is no rule that he has to and thus should not be penalized for the mistake of the dealer. If it is clear that the dealer put the cards on the top of the deck, then I don't see anything wrong with keeping them in play in this situation.

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The dealer did not make a mistake. The player did. It's the player's responsibility to protect their cards at all times. Dealers are trained to pick up unprotected cards.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Allowing dealers to muck hands without justification also creates some good cheating opportunites (A and B heads up on river. A has better hand. B is friend of dealer. Dealer mucks A's cards.) A player should protect his cards, but there is no rule that he has to and thus should not be penalized for the mistake of the dealer. If it is clear that the dealer put the cards on the top of the deck, then I don't see anything wrong with keeping them in play in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dealer did not make a mistake. The player did. It's the player's responsibility to protect their cards at all times. Dealers are trained to pick up unprotected cards.

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I think they both made a mistake, but agree with the floor. Rules are in place for a reason, to protect the integrity of the game. The floor made a decision that was in the spirit of that integrity, ignoring the nitpickers who would argue "rules are rules" without understanding why rules are there in the first place.

[RogerZBT]

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The dealer did not make a mistake. The player did. It's the player's responsibility to protect their cards at all times. Dealers are trained to pick up unprotected cards.

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The dealer clearly made a msitake. He mucked a live hand. Dealers are trained to pick up DEAD cards.

[RogerZBT]

From Robert's Rules: "Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game."

Since the dealer was quite sure that the top two cards were the correct ones, and took the added step to keep his hand on the cards, the call isn't totally wrong.

That said, I wouldn't have agreed with the decision to give them back. I always cap my cards, so I'm fine letting other people who don't suffer.

[Aces McGee]

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Seat 1 re-raises immediately in turn as the dealer scoops up his cards, which were unprotected, and places them on top of the deck.

[/ QUOTE ] (emphasis mine).

Was the deck already mixed in with the other mucked cards, or had the dealer kept them separate? Does it even matter?

-McGee

[jedi]

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I think they both made a mistake, but agree with the floor. Rules are in place for a reason, to protect the integrity of the game. The floor made a decision that was in the spirit of that integrity, ignoring the nitpickers who would argue "rules are rules" without understanding why rules are there in the first place.

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Sure. Within the spirit of the game, the floor made a good decision, but if the decision had gone the other way, the floorman would have been right as well. As a player, you don't want to even consider that the floorman MIGHT rule against you here. Protect your cards.

[Grisgra]

was avoid a tri-state killing spree. Which is what would I'd go on if a dealer mucked my ROYAL FLUSH by mistake, unprotected cards or not [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

[Andy B]

The floor ruled properly, and I'm pretty sure that any floor person at Canterbury would rule the same way.

Seat four should shut the hell up already.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[quote
Sure. Within the spirit of the game, the floor made a good decision, but if the decision had gone the other way, the floorman would have been right as well . As a player, you don't want to even consider that the floorman MIGHT rule against you here. Protect your cards.

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That's what makes for a cool argument.

[KC50]

I think they both made a mistake, but agree with the floor. Rules are in place for a reason, to protect the integrity of the game. The floor made a decision that was in the spirit of that integrity, ignoring the nitpickers who would argue "rules are rules" without understanding why rules are there in the first place.

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There has been mixed opinions on this issue. The message brought up here by the quote above is key.

Integrity and spirit of the game is the utmost importance.

This is why there is always one rule that will supersede all others, It is always listed either first or last in the posted cardroom's rules or by-laws.

"The Floor Supervisors decision is final".

In this case I agree the floors call to be in the best interest of the game.

KC