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#11
11-15-2005, 01:42 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
My actions:
#1 fold #2 push #3 push 
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#12
11-15-2005, 01:43 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 Hands
I have sngpt too and I realized that you really have to look at the ranges of some players because even though most players play a bad end game at this level some will play way too loose and some way too soft. SNGPT doesn't lie, but if you don't have a good read on players at your table you should pass up some of the more marginal pushing opportunities because if you are a good player there will often times be more profitable plays to make soon.
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#13
11-15-2005, 01:48 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I wonder how bad this play is. [/ QUOTE ] Worse than you could ever know. [/ QUOTE ] Well, in my defense: I'm making this play less and less often. But, I'd still be interested in seeing the difference quantified. [/ QUOTE ] Well first off, you affectively transfer the push/fold power to the BB, now YOU have to have a good hand to call his push over the top. So he can now push any two. The times you can't call, you've bled valuable chips. That will be most times.
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#14
11-15-2005, 01:58 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I wonder how bad this play is. [/ QUOTE ] Worse than you could ever know. [/ QUOTE ] Well, in my defense: I'm making this play less and less often. But, I'd still be interested in seeing the difference quantified. [/ QUOTE ] Well first off, you effectively transfer the push/fold power to the BB, now YOU have to have a good hand to call his push over the top. So he can now push any two. The times you can't call, you've bled valuable chips. That will be most times. [/ QUOTE ]If he is going to push any two over a min-raise, then isn't it right to min-raise sometimes? Some sort of mixed strategy is probably best. There are times when you want a call, if BB is more likely to get all his chips in if you min-raise than if you push, it seems prudent to mix in some min-raises. Right? Actually, if BB pushes any two after a min-raise, that's no different than a 100% calling range if the SB pushes. It would seem that there would be a way to exploit this.
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#15
11-15-2005, 02:08 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I wonder how bad this play is. [/ QUOTE ] Worse than you could ever know. [/ QUOTE ] Well, in my defense: I'm making this play less and less often. But, I'd still be interested in seeing the difference quantified. [/ QUOTE ] Well first off, you effectively transfer the push/fold power to the BB, now YOU have to have a good hand to call his push over the top. So he can now push any two. The times you can't call, you've bled valuable chips. That will be most times. [/ QUOTE ]If he is going to push any two over a min-raise, then isn't it right to min-raise sometimes? Some sort of mixed strategy is probably best. There are times when you want a call, if BB is more likely to get all his chips in if you min-raise than if you push, it seems prudent to mix in some min-raises. Right? Actually, if BB pushes any two after a min-raise, that's no different than a 100% calling range if the SB pushes. It would seem that there would be a way to exploit this. [/ QUOTE ] If BB has a 100% calling range, you need to have a good hand to push in the first place. If you have a good hand, and want a call, then yeah, I think a min-raise would work in this situation. In fact, I don't what other bet you would want to make with a good hand here. That's the only way I can see to exploit it.
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#16
11-15-2005, 02:17 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I wonder how bad this play is. [/ QUOTE ] Worse than you could ever know. [/ QUOTE ] Well, in my defense: I'm making this play less and less often. But, I'd still be interested in seeing the difference quantified. [/ QUOTE ] Alright, if I am BB, I push 100% of my hands, and you fold. So you just donated 800 chips to me, which is over 33% of your stack.
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#17
11-15-2005, 02:25 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
[ QUOTE ]
If BB has a 100% calling range, you need to have a good hand to push in the first place. If you have a good hand, and want a call, then yeah, I think a min-raise would work in this situation. In fact, I don't what other bet you would want to make with a good hand here. That's the only way I can see to exploit it. [/ QUOTE ]If a min-raise always means a good hand that wants a call, then BB won't call very often (almost never). In which case, it's right to include some non-premium hands in the min-raise mix.
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#18
11-15-2005, 02:39 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If BB has a 100% calling range, you need to have a good hand to push in the first place. If you have a good hand, and want a call, then yeah, I think a min-raise would work in this situation. In fact, I don't what other bet you would want to make with a good hand here. That's the only way I can see to exploit it. [/ QUOTE ]If a min-raise always means a good hand that wants a call, then BB won't call very often (almost never). In which case, it's right to include some non-premium hands in the min-raise mix. [/ QUOTE ] This is actually a circular argument. "If BB thinks I am trapping, then I should be making this bluff because he won't call. So, instead of pushing every time, I should mix in some min-raise bluffs, so eventually when I get a hand I do want a call on, maybe he'll bite." That is how I read your post. That doesn't work though, because every time you do this without a hand you have to fold to his push. So, while you are making these moves to set him up, he's am stealing your chips. No like that.
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#19
11-15-2005, 02:39 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I wonder how bad this play is. [/ QUOTE ] Worse than you could ever know. [/ QUOTE ] Well, in my defense: I'm making this play less and less often. But, I'd still be interested in seeing the difference quantified. [/ QUOTE ] Alright, if I am BB, I push 100% of my hands, and you fold. So you just donated 800 chips to me, which is over 33% of your stack. [/ QUOTE ]If you're pushing back 100% of hands, I can figure a way to exploit this. But, I don't think that's what most players are doing. I think the reality is that players are very tight in this BB situation. Part of me knows that it's right to push. Part of me thinks a mixed strategy would be even better in theory. Part of me knows that the BB isn't going to play anywhere near optimally in the face of a min-raise. And, part of me feels it's nice not to risk ruin on this hand. I try to avoid playing by feel, but sometimes I can't help myself. Anyway, all this was meant as sympathy for the OP who was having trouble himself with committing to the push in this situation. I meant mostly to let him know that he is not alone. Note that I've wondered "how bad" the min-raise is, not whether it is bad.
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#20
11-15-2005, 02:43 PM
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Re: PP $11 - Okay, so I\'m ascared of pushing on the bubble. BFD. 3 H
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, all this was meant as sympathy for the OP who was having trouble himself with committing to the push in this situation. I meant mostly to let him know that he is not alone. Note that I've wondered "how bad" the min-raise is, not whether it is bad. [/ QUOTE ] This is was very helpful actually, because it made me think through both the SB and BB plays. Which was a backended way to get to - this is a push and only a push. I'm slightly less afraid now.
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