Agnosticism in Doubt

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not sure what I am. Perhaps someone could help me identify myself? I've recently been called a "scoffer", but I don't like that term and don't think it fits.

I flat out don't believe there is a god. Is it possible there is a god? I would think it IS possible. I just don't think it's likely. In fact, I think it's so unlikely that I went from calling myself an agnostic to an atheist. Yet, I will still concede a god is possible. If ever given a reason to believe, I wouldn't deny God. It seems many non-believers take atheism to a religious level themselves. I don't advocate that. I have no problem with "In God we trust" on American coins, or "One nation under God" in the pledge, as a form of tradition and/or unity. I am not worried about my children's rights being violated in shcool over this or our country being unable to seperate church and state. In other words, I am not ANTI - God with a vengeance.

So am I waffling? Am I weak or wishy-washy? Am I an agnostic, or an atheist?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're in transition from someone who think they believe god is unlikely to someone who realises that this is meaningless and they simply don't believe in god because there's no reason to.

Its touch and go between this glory and you being seduced by the dark side of evidence.

chez

not necessarily. are you an atheist or an agnostic? if agnostic, try becoming either a theist or atheist, depending on whichever you lean closest to. If your skeptical nature prevents you from doing this easily, try reading philosophers on the side of the fence you are leaning to. Let them convince you, try to make yourself more flexible and open to their ideas. Try them on for size, so to speak.

If people have a hard time doing this, they must be very reluctant to come to a strong belief. Maybe that is psychological, but I'm sure they can change it with effort.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
not necessarily. are you an atheist or an agnostic? if agnostic, try becoming either a theist or atheist, depending on whichever you lean closest to. If your skeptical nature prevents you from doing this easily, try reading philosophers on the side of the fence you are leaning to. Let them convince you, try to make yourself more flexible and open to their ideas. Try them on for size, so to speak.

If people have a hard time doing this, they must be very reluctant to come to a strong belief. Maybe that is psychological, but I'm sure they can change it with effort.

[/ QUOTE ]
[I'm ignoring the athiest/agnostic debacle]

I dont lean and I have no trouble with forming strong beliefs. I've read about most ideas and philosophies (I am very old you know) and engaged with the ideas. I'm open to all rational arguments but hard as I try all my irrationalities are by accident.

chez

[Lestat]

I think what evolvedform is saying, is that deep down you must believe something. So just say it! Get it out and live it with it for a while.

I tend to agree with this. When someone says, "I don't know if there's a god". Well of course they don't! No one does. But what do you THINK? If you had to wager one way or another, where would your money be? Whatever side that is, go with it for a while and see how it feels.

I had queens today and didn't know if I was up against AA or KK. Eventually, I made a decision about what I believed and went with it.

I'm not directing any of this at you chezlaw, just that I see the importance of Evolvedform seems to be saying about making a decision. If for no other reason than one's own piece of mind.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I think what evolvedform is saying, is that deep down you must believe something. So just say it! Get it out and live it with it for a while.

I tend to agree with this. When someone says, "I don't know if there's a god". Well of course they don't! No one does. But what do you THINK? If you had to wager one way or another, where would your money be? Whatever side that is, go with it for a while and see how it feels.

I had queens today and didn't know if I was up against AA or KK. Eventually, I made a decision about what I believed and went with it.

I'm not directing any of this at you chezlaw, just that I see the importance of Evolvedform seems to be saying about making a decision. If for no other reason than one's own piece of mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do believe something. Maybe it bears repeating.

1) There is no reason to believe in god
2) There is no way of proving god doesn't exists

The wagering analogy is bad. you didn't make a decision about what he had, you made a decision to call or not based on the probabilities you assigned to each possibility. This requires belief in a probability distribution for the various hands, there is no equivalent probability for the existence of god (and no equivalent decision to be made), when people (even really clever ones) assign an x% chance of god existing they're just making it up.

chez

Without question there is a subjective/irrational element to both extremes. If one is to adopt a faith (which atheism is) by being completely rational, they will not be able to do so. They of course can and should use rationality to a great degree. But we are living, mortal beings - not computers that live forever. So trying to find an absolute proof of the correct answer is foolish. Because we live lives and have experiences, there is another element; that is, the importance of this dilemma to our philosophy. We are subjective by nature and our philosophy demands this subjectivity.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Without question there is a subjective/irrational element to both extremes. If one is to adopt a faith (which atheism is) by being completely rational, they will not be able to do so. They of course can and should use rationality to a great degree. But we are living, mortal beings - not computers that live forever. So trying to find an absolute proof of the correct answer is foolish. Because we live lives and have experiences, there is another element; that is, the importance of this dilemma to our philosophy. We are subjective by nature and our philosophy demands this subjectivity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its nothing to do with absolute proof. I believe loads of things I cant prove.

It's about reasons to believe.

chez

[I'm ignoring the athiest/agnostic debacle]

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> he wagering analogy is bad. you didn't make a decision about what he had, you made a decision to call or not based on the probabilities you assigned to each possibility. </font>

I thought the analogy was spot on. The decision was pre-flop. Regardless of how I assessed the probablities the point is, I had to form a belief and go with it. Were queens worth playing or not?

If you set the probabilities for there being a god as very low, then let's face it... You're not a believer! If you think they are high, then you believe. Waffling around in the middle saying you're not sure, is a cop out. Name me one thing you CAN be sure of!

The reason to believe is that you are a human with the incredible ability to make a choice(forget determinism for a sec, you obviously can choose to believe or not). The ability to make this choice is a frightening and fantastic aspect of life that should not be wasted. What reason do you have for not believing? Resignation?

btw chez i don't mean to sound harsh or disrespectful of your views.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> he wagering analogy is bad. you didn't make a decision about what he had, you made a decision to call or not based on the probabilities you assigned to each possibility. </font>

I thought the analogy was spot on. The decision was pre-flop. Regardless of how I assessed the probablities the point is, I had to form a belief and go with it. Were queens worth playing or not?

If you set the probabilities for there being a god as very low, then let's face it... You're not a believer! If you think they are high, then you believe. Waffling around in the middle saying you're not sure, is a cop out. Name me one thing you CAN be sure of!

[/ QUOTE ]
There's no question I'm not a believer. Clearly I dont believe in god. I'm not sure how there could be any confusion about that. (I'm really confused as to how you think this is to do with me setting a low probability for god's existence)

As for poker, preflop or not is irrelevent, you decide QQ is good because you can assign probabilities to his hand and so deduce your hand is better on average (+ev to play).

chez