Preflop bluff turns into money by the river

[Kailia Marie]

Hi ZootMurph,

3-betting loose-aggros with 7 high is not the right way to go. You will have plenty of chances to 3-bet him, why choose now? The main key to playing versus LAGs is, contrary to popular rhetoric, is not outLAGging them. You need high card and pair power in case you ever need to show your hand down, which you will have to quite often. That means pocket pairs, Ace high, and sometimes king high are the way to go.

Also your turn action is inconsistent with your thought process.

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OK, I now have a OESD. If I don't bet, Button will. And I will call. So, I decide betting is better than check/calling.

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If you knew by button's calling the flop, he had a hand that he was not going to let go of on the turn, and you were fairly sure he was going to bet the turn anyways, you should be check/calling this turn since you have zero fold equity and you run the risk of having to pay two bets on the turn rather than one if he raises you (which has to be a possibility esp. considering you said he was going to almost always bet this turn.)

The river, of course, is fine. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

In another post in this thread you asked if you were the only one that didn't play ABC all the time. ABC poker, as boring as it may be, is what wins 95% of the time. The 5% creativity should not be designated for your preflop play which should have been part of the ABC 95% of the time which was to fold.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Kailia

[ErrantNight]

look, i like to vary my play as much as the next. but you're not pulling a "variance" play, you're trying to isolate with a hand that has zero showdown value against an opponent that likes to play aggressively. nice job.

[ZootMurph]

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I don't think middle suited connectors are the type of hand you want to isolate a LAG with. You need hands with high card strength and showdown value (UI).

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I agree, that, in general, you don't want to do this. However, there are times when situations like this are favorable and this is one of those situations. Slightly -EV immediately, definitely +EV long term just from the play variance and action you'll get later from people seeing this play.

[charlie_t_jr]

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I make plays like this ocassionally when I have a read on someone that I can use against them. Plays outside the generic plays.

Again, I'm just curious... is there anyone out there besides me who isn't an automaton?

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I think you've got the right idea, just in the wrong spot(MP3). As Entity points out, you need a lot to go right pre-flop.

Are you absolutely sure this wasn't out of boredom. I mean it's all right if it was...very ballsy and fun! Just don't do it very much.

[ErrantNight]

you're doing some ridiculously selective thinking.

open raising from early position into a crowd of loosies with 76s is a -ev, solid variance play every once a blue moon. you'll likely end up with a big pot, you have a solid drawing hand, and no one will be able to put you on it.

this is stupid isolation with a hand that has to improve to the best hand and is unlikely to do so headsup against an opponent that may charge you a LOT if you flop a reasonable draw.

and it's very, very wrong.

[ErrantNight]

if you make this play and the river is a 2 of hearts and you bet and villain calls with Q9o and takes it down with queen high do you make this post?

[ZootMurph]

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As for the spewing/getting bored posts... am I the only one who varies their play? I don't play ABC poker all the time, otherwise it is too easy to play against me.

I make plays like this ocassionally when I have a read on someone that I can use against them. Plays outside the generic plays.

Again, I'm just curious... is there anyone out there besides me who isn't an automaton?

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What the hell did you want from posting this hand? It wasn't advice because you've ignored it.

You're going to have a holy parlay necessary when you 3-bet a hand like 7-high preflop:

1) Button and Blinds cannot pick up a hand.
2) Maniac must not have a good hand.
3) Maniac must not hit a hand on the flop or have any reasonable spectre of a draw to continue with postflop.

If you had posted a blind in the CO, I think the choice would be a bit closer and I wouldn't hate the 3-bet there, as it's an interesting situation. But here, you have nothing invested and consequently have to turn 7-high into a +EV hand when 3-betting against an aggressive player.

If Button was an 11% VPIP'er (note that in your original damned post) then that changes things but not enough to make this play decent; at that point, it's only marginally retarded.

Pick a better damned spot and stop being condescending to those who tried to provide advice, especially those who are willing to try new things and play differently than standard ABC poker, who still manage to hate your play on every street besides the river.

Rob

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Getting pissed off isn't the answer dude. How easily do you go on tilt at the poker table, LOL? What I wanted from this were two things. First, to see if anyone else sees the value in this type of play, and second, how my play was ON AND AFTER THE FLOP, which no one seemed to comment about. The fact is that I made the preflop play which no one likes. I see that it isn't a standard play, and that is clear to anyone that has played for more than a month. Comment on the rest of the hand using the information I have given.

I disagree with the holy parlay theory, otherwise I wouldn't have made the play. Simply, you are going to get very few calls in that situation behind you. Considering the nature of both the button and BB, I felt confident in making the play. I agree with both 1 and 3. I think that 2 should be adjusted by saying a VERY good hand. KQ is a good hand, but if an Ace flops he's folding to my bet on the flop. So really, by making this play, I only need him not to hit his hand. Since this happens more often than not, this makes the play good. As we saw in the hand, he folded to my flop bet. If button didn't have a hand, it would have worked exactly as I'd planned. I just had some bad luck that button picked up a big hand. In any case, I estimate that the preflop play will work over 67% of the time in the situation presented, making the preflop play fine. If you consider the top 10% of hands to be hands that can call the 3 bet here, I'm a 3:1 favorite here that no one will pick up a callable hand. I'm good with that whole situation.

Lots of damns in there... I hope you walked away after this post and took some deep breaths. You really tilt, man. REALLY tilt. Wow! Anyway, I did say that I forgot to put all the information in the post, and I apologized for that... relax. Jesus [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Finally, I think that spot was good, and unless you can give me more than your first post, which was what, two sentences? about why this wasn't a good spot, I would do it again 1 time in 20 in the same situation. And nowhere in any of my posts was I condescending. The fact that you are currently on tilt probably has a lot to do with your interpretation of the situation. If, however, after you've calmed down, you still feel like I was condescending to you, then you have my deepest apologies, as I never intended that.

[ErrantNight]

you're an insufferable ass! congratulations!

[ZootMurph]

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As for the spewing/getting bored posts... am I the only one who varies their play? I don't play ABC poker all the time, otherwise it is too easy to play against me.

I make plays like this ocassionally when I have a read on someone that I can use against them. Plays outside the generic plays.

Again, I'm just curious... is there anyone out there besides me who isn't an automaton?

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At 2/4 no1 is paying any attention to what the hell you are doing. I think this just sets yourself up for situations where people will play strangely against you and I like solid reads not whacky stuff to go by. I think its good that you posted this hand and you really should learn something from this thread.

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This is untrue. How many 2+2ers are playing 2/4? I am. I have chatted with others at the tables many times. And, 2+2ers aren't the only players who play 2/4 that are aware and alert. Finally, I would suggest to you that you give a little more respect to the players you play against. Not respecting them can really hurt your play. I say this from experience. I became a winning player not from crazy plays like this or even ABC poker so much as from respecting the players I'm playing against. They aren't ALL donks. When I used to think they were, I made a LOT of mistakes. I make mistakes now based on my own stupidity, not the belief that all my opponents are stupid.

[ErrantNight]

(a) Rob is a better poker player than you. You may not believe/know/think this, but its mere possibility means you should listen to what he has to say

(b) you're completely incapable of receiving criticism. and you're unwilling to accept that you could have done something wrong. is there anything interesting about you playing poorly for two streets, making a desperation bluff on the turn, and sucking out on the river? nope.

(c) you're being deliberately antagonizing, which is unhelpful

(d) between your attitude and your play you think you're much better than you are... which consequentially means you'll have some growing pains to go through. hopefully in that same time you mature a little bit

peace!