When playing another 2+2er....

[Scuba Chuck]

Citanul, curiously enough, I was serious. Maybe I am tired, and need to clear some cobwebs. Unfortunately, your cobwebs are thicker than mine. I called, with the option to fold.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Citanul, curiously enough, I was serious. Maybe I am tired, and need to clear some cobwebs. Unfortunately, your cobwebs are thicker than mine. I called, with the option to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back and read the converter...i mean it was ur hand so you know better...but I could swear it says Scuba raises to 175 and Mrzarembsky calls 150...unless u guys switched user names, it looked like u couldnt fold PF...unless you just mucked AK without a limper or raiser behind you which makes no sense...

Im so confused

[The Yugoslavian]

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Ilya was kind enough to show you why, and even explain it to you, which; apparently he likes to do a lot.
Irieguy

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Zing!

FWIW Scuba called an allin with AK the previous hand to become one of the bigger stacks (I believe?).

Ilya: I like your stop n go here rather than coming over the top for all of your chips. If you are dealing with overcards you don't want Scuba to have the whole 5 card board with which to pair. Thus, putting him to the test after 3 cards isn't a bad idea as you may have more FE than ramming preflop (where he probably calls with ~1.6 to 1 pot odds).

I'm wondering what you think Scuba's range of hands is here? I'd imagine it's big enough to play TT here but perhaps not. There are several hands TT is dominated by and it's only a small favorite against the rest (I doubt Scuba would make this play with a small pp, perhaps 99 or 88 I suppose though). I would love to know your thoughts as I have my own ideas about which hands Scuba is representin'.

Also, who thinks mowrmowr should change his name to roarroar?? I think this would instantly net him a 5% increase in ROI. Hell, it very well might net *me* a 5% increase in ROI -- so n/m, I guess I'll be the one changing my name, [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Yugoslav

[Scuba Chuck]

I owe Citanul an apology. Open mouth, insert foot.

Ok, I did open raise. So yes, I like my play here. And, I like ILYA's play. And, I like my fold, especially since I went on to win. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ilya]

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Heheh....ouch....point taken, though. I swear I don't table coach nearly as much when it's not 2 AM and I'm not trying to keep myself awake!

Am I really notorious for table coaching a lot?? Or are you just making fun of me based on the chat for that hand?
Anyway....Scuba, I had TT.

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I'm just playing around. I know you have a sense of humor from some of your posts.

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Looks like you're giving me altogether too much credit... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[ilya]

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Seriously now, reflecting more on this hand...

Knowing my opponent the way I do, with AK, I probably should fold this hand Preflop. His range of hands, probably are AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ.

What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never play trash like JJ.

[citanul]

No apology necessary. Don't worry bout it.

I think I like the play of the hand all around, maybe occasionally calling, or something. But seeing as how you went on to win, clearly fold was the right play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

citanul

[ilya]

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Ilya: I like your stop n go here rather than coming over the top for all of your chips. If you are dealing with overcards you don't want Scuba to have the whole 5 card board with which to pair. Thus, putting him to the test after 3 cards isn't a bad idea as you may have more FE than ramming preflop (where he probably calls with ~1.6 to 1 pot odds).

I'm wondering what you think Scuba's range of hands is here? I'd imagine it's big enough to play TT here but perhaps not. There are several hands TT is dominated by and it's only a small favorite against the rest (I doubt Scuba would make this play with a small pp, perhaps 99 or 88 I suppose though). I would love to know your thoughts as I have my own ideas about which hands Scuba is representin'.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't say that I did a lot of "thinking" in this hand. Per se. But hey...
-Scuba knows I'm tight, so he'll probably play tighter against my flop all-in that against some random guy's
-Scuba knows I know he's tight
-- I know that Scuba can probably fold KK/QQ/JJ if an Ace flops, among other things
-Scuba probably believes that just because I bet out on the flop, doesn't mean I don't have a strong hand
-If I flop an overpair, I'd guess I'm better than even money to have the best hand against Scuba's range, and he'll fold the overcard hands when I move in

- I'm the smallest stack and I need to make some kind of move soon to ensure I have FE for the blind-stealing levels

- I don't like the flop much either, but once I call, I have to follow through...otherwise I'm not doing a stop-and-go but just making a loose call out of position

-- It's a pocket pair! I can't fold a pocket pair!!

[The Yugoslavian]

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I can't say that I did a lot of "thinking" in this hand. Per se. But hey...

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I'm sure some of this can be blamed on me but after the fact thinking can be just as good and possibly even more enlightening.

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-Scuba knows I'm tight, so he'll probably play tighter against my flop all-in that against some random guy's
-Scuba knows I know he's tight


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So, do you think you have a decent amount of FE preflop going allin? Do you think you really gain more by stopping and going?

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-- I know that Scuba can probably fold KK/QQ/JJ if an Ace flops, among other things
-Scuba probably believes that just because I bet out on the flop, doesn't mean I don't have a strong hand
-If I flop an overpair, I'd guess I'm better than even money to have the best hand against Scuba's range, and he'll fold the overcard hands when I move in


[/ QUOTE ]

These points seem to support that a stop n go will increase your FE (and possibly giving your TT a way to chase out dominating hands JJ-KK). I like a stop n go if you think you very well could be behind preflop but I may like a preflop fold even better.

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- I'm the smallest stack and I need to make some kind of move soon to ensure I have FE for the blind-stealing levels


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Ok, but is this the time to do it? You're facing a significant bet from a 2+2er from MP. How much respect should you give this raise (i.e. what's the worst hand he could make this play with -- are there enough hands in his range to justify you playing back at him with TT?)

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- I don't like the flop much either, but once I call, I have to follow through...otherwise I'm not doing a stop-and-go but just making a loose call out of position


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Yes, but is a stop n go necessarily better than a fold or an allin raise?

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-- It's a pocket pair! I can't fold a pocket pair!!

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Meh, it's a mid pocket pair -- and I'm positive you've folded TT before. The question should be, is this one of those times I should fold it?

Thanks for your thinking. However, you still didn't answer my original question! Given the opening preflop bet by Scuba, what range of hands do you think he could have here? How does TT rate vs. this range of hands? If it rates favorably, how can you go about extracting the most value (aside from looking down and seeing TT and thinking 'hey, this is pretty decent I better play it').

I will respond with what I might put him on given the context after your response.

Yugoslav

[ilya]

I think the range of Scuba's ranges is

AA-JJ/AK -- AA-99/AK-AQ/AKs-AJs,

with the actual range being closer to the first than the second.

It's true that he knows the guy in the BB is tight, but there are a few players in between, and anyway, the blinds aren't high enough yet.

I think I should have folded.

P.S. I actually can fold a pocket pair [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]