Multi-way pot with a flopped straight-flush draw

[Michael C.]

If one of the five players has two overcards, one of which is a club, they're tied with you. If someone has a straight or flush, you're behind (with four people in the pot, the chances of someone having one of those hands is not SO insignificant). If someone calls with either the J or A of clubs and any second card, they have a lot of outs. So most of the people calling here are ahead of you or even with you. A lot of these hands leave you with outs and given the odds may justify your push. But I don't see why this such a clear push and why it is so uncommon for someone to have two clubs, or two straight cards. That's a lot of cards, and suited cards and connectors are exactly what a lot of people limp with. Maybe it's a push, but it's not so clear to me without more thought.

[tigerite]

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Why did you not include JQ or two clubs, two very possible holdings that put hero way behind?

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Because you have no reason to believe they are there?

Come on guys, you can't fold this and shouldn't even think about anything but pushing for over half a second.

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Got to agree. This is a push.

[aujoz]

my newbie view on this:
-the pot's big enough that winning it puts you in a good position late-ish in the tourney
-there's a good chance everyone will fold
-even if they don't fold, you're in a good spot to win with your very strong draws

=push, in my view

[nolanfan34]

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Why did you not include JQ or two clubs, two very possible holdings that put hero way behind?

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Because you have no reason to believe they are there?

Come on guys, you can't fold this and shouldn't even think about anything but pushing for over half a second.

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This is pretty much the crux of the discussion, and the reason I thought the hand was interesting. When I saw the hand, I immediately thought easy push. But there were a number of people who said the same things as some have in this thread, regarding just how strong the draws are, and whether hero is drawing live, etc. I thought it was interesting the people pretty much were in one camp or the other - not much middle ground.

After looking at the math, and the ranges of possible hands, I do think this is something I'd probably push with as well. Particularly because it's a SNG, and you can't pass up the chance to pick up this many chips I think, when you have a small edge and there's a chance that people will fold. I think it's important to remember that while the board looks dangerous to hero because of possible draws, it looks equally dangerous, if not moreso, to an opponent who may be ahead now with an overpair, but doesn't have a club or a straight draw.

Thanks for the discussion on this.

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Why did you not include JQ or two clubs, two very possible holdings that put hero way behind?

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Because we know our equity against these hands. My point is simply that there's a huge amount of hands that we're ahead of that pay off.

FOLD!

You are assuming one caller? This is a 10 sng. Every club, pair, and 10 will come calling.You are behind TPTK, and even if you are ahead of some hands many hands will actually be favored? The equity numbers are not that impressive? You lose the hand your tourney is done. You win the hand and you probably lose all future fold equity.

[splashpot]

I probably would have folded preflop despite getting 7-1 odds. But that just shows how weak tight I am.

Personally i would fold this pre-flop.

I would definitely fold this flop though, i think that out of the flush outs only 2 are any good (for the straight flush) and we have the wrong end of the straight draw.

Fold pre-flop. But that's not what you asked about...

This may sound silly, but I'd straight fold here. You have two other players to act, including a pre-flop raiser. If you push, you'll get called by plenty of people whose hands or future hands (Ac, Jc, set, better two pair) eliminate many or most of your outs. If you call, getting raised is very possible. No card can give you a lock. Every turn card is tainted and/or susceptible to plenty of redraws. You still have a decent stack. Run away.

A real debate would be what to do w/ Jc9h here...