20/40 Commerce - turn raises - Page 2

onegymrat · #11 11-28-2005, 04:08 PM

Hi again Jazz,

Great thoughts and well said, thank you. I agree with you about Hand 1, where the river bet may not be such a great idea. I am my worst critic.

On hand 2, it's just so difficult to put these type of players (tilting guy who is, on his best day, a mediocre player, and laggy guy who is waiting for a NL table) on specific hands. They were being rarely challenged in this game, mainly because they kept getting headsup. I thought that this specific moment was best to do so.

KramerTM · #12 11-28-2005, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi again Jazz,

Great thoughts and well said, thank you. I agree with you about Hand 1, where the river bet may not be such a great idea. I am my worst critic.

On hand 2, it's just so difficult to put these type of players (tilting guy who is, on his best day, a mediocre player, and laggy guy who is waiting for a NL table) on specific hands. They were being rarely challenged in this game, mainly because they kept getting headsup. I thought that this specific moment was best to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 2... I would expect LAG to CR the turn if his top pair just turned into a set. Therefore, I think calling down is OK.

Hand 1... Can't imagine you are getting this guy to fold enough to warrant a bet. Just check behind and save a bet.

andyfox · #13 11-28-2005, 06:11 PM

First hand: In my experience, a guy shows his hand to his sweating wife, and calls the flop, he's calling you all the way down. If he had crap, he wouldn't show it to her if he didn't fold, he'd be too afraid/embarrassed. He wants to show her, in case he loses, that he has a hand which has some value, he's got to call. Also, turn raises work (in the sense of getting an opponent to fold) when the turn card puts a flush draw on board.

Second hand: That turn 9 would seem a good card for you. There was no reraise from the original bettor preflop and one wouldn't think MP has a 9 since he only called (twice) on the flop. I'd prefer if the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] had come, but I guess I don't have that option.

What were you going to do if somebody 3-bets? And if one (or both) call, what about the river?

onegymrat · #14 11-28-2005, 06:34 PM

Hi Andy,
[ QUOTE ]
What were you going to do if somebody 3-bets? And if one (or both) call, what about the river?

[/ QUOTE ]I would have folded to a 3-bet for sure. I would also check the river should one or both called.

I didn't think my river bet for hand #1 was good either. Just needed to get reassurance about that play.

onegymrat · #15 11-28-2005, 07:51 PM

Hand 1: BB calls my bluff bet with my nut no-pair and I say, "You got me. Ace king." He looks at my hand, then his hand and opens A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and my hand is good. I have no idea what happened.

Hand 2:
TURN: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Tilting guy checks, MP bets. I raise. Tilting guy mucks quickly. MP thinks for a while and looks at his cards for about ten seconds. Then he mucks.

Thank you for all the advice.

sweetjazz · #16 11-28-2005, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: BB calls my bluff bet with my nut no-pair and I say, "You got me. Ace king." He looks at my hand, then his hand and opens A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and my hand is good. I have no idea what happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, heh. Good value bet. I think this, nevertheless, illustrates why checking behind is best. You assume that after BB calls your turn raise, you are behind more than 50% of the time (probably closer to 90% of the time...fortunately BB was a horrible calling station and didn't have a hand that beats yours). Once BB made the turn call, he can't get away from his hand, even when it is ATo.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2:
TURN: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Tilting guy checks, MP bets. I raise. Tilting guy mucks quickly. MP thinks for a while and looks at his cards for about ten seconds. Then he mucks.

Thank you for all the advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice that this hand worked out for you, but you can see by how the other players played the hand how much strength you represented. (Presumably, you had a solid tight image coming into this hand.) Thus, had someone continued on in this hand AND bet into again (either 3-betting the turn or betting out on the river), you are almost certainly beat. I'd only call another bet if I thought the other player was badly tilting or liked to make tricky, unorthodox plays.