Opinion Wanted

[Dr Wogga]

.....and represent queens. If the king or anyone else comes over the top with a re-raise, I probably fold. The reason to raise is to try and get information for what the other guys have. Maybe you knock out the K or one of the other guys and get it heads up. Also, if you knock out the K, you have an excellent chance of acting 1st on 4th St, where betting out might win you the pot right there.

[MMMMMM]

Mason I don't know;-)-- but I wish you would post more things like this, including some of the pivot points where such things might change based on higher ante structures. In the example I you give, since I don't have a firm feel for the best play, I would probably base it on my particular opponents' tendencies. If the limper is tight and the player holding the King is aggressive, then I'm folding...that's all I can say for sure.

Some of these stud situations may appear marginal but I feel they are important as well, since getting involved in a Stud hand often takes you to the river.

[SittingBull]

neglected to mention is how the "K" player plays. Is he the loose/aggressive type,the tight/aggressive type??
If loose/aggressive fold,otherwise,raise unless he thinks that u are capable of folding to a re-raise in which case I would then fold on 3rd. Even with a live "K" high,U are very vulnerable.
The more I think about it,the more i like a FOLD in this spot--but it's either a raise or a fold,with FOLDING the better of the two plays.
HappyPokering, [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
SittingBull

[Gitz]

Automatic Raise. High probability of winning it right here if K doesn't have another one. Bring-in 2 will fold and the 7 with a pair from 7's to J's is dead if he/she calls.

Sissy Paul

[berya]

Most of the time I would raise. If I was involved in a few pots before this and the players were suspecting me of stealing I might call and try to take it on 4th. I would not fold unless I felt a 7 is trying to slow play and a King is liking his hand and is getting ready for action

berya

[MRBAA]

I'd be looking for tells from he king. If he looks like he's coming in, I'd fold. In the absence of tells, I'd raise. Since you have two sevens, there's a good chance the limping seven is on a flush draw. Even if he has split sevens, your kicker is pretty good and he has to think you are likely to have queens to raise into the king. There's $60 in the pot, assuming an 8 player game ($40 in antes, $10 bring in, $10 call from the seven). Worth gambling $40 that the player behind you doesn't have his king paired in my book.

[Mike]

I may have misunderstood the ante structure. If all players ante $5.00 and the table is full you have an easy call and can even go for a raise.

Reason being is the amount of the ante, and the money in the pot. While your hand isn't the best, there is enough money in the pot to see the next card for.

[MadMonster]

Raise. No if's and but's about it. Definitely raise.
The value of the hidden pair is greatly reduced by the dead 7. You probably have the best hand here but are less likely to end-up with it if you limp-in.
The probability of the other 7 being a pair is also smaller than a draw so it is that much easier to determine what they are on as the play continues.
The purpose of the raise is to diminish the field but also to find out what the K does here sooner than later.
Depending on the game and the players (as always)you should throw it away if reraised. You are wagering 1/2 a bet for a wealth of information,a chance to control the action and to get out cheap if reraised.
The game structure is also interesting here. The 40-80 at the Bellagio is a pretty solid game and the $5 keeps it from being played fast. If I was playing Mason Malmuth here with a draw hand with either the K or A I would call and most definitely raise if I had a high pair. I would not elect to slow play a multi-handed pot here or a player of your strength. If the draw hand(s) miss on the turn they are out (or should be)and unless the boards get truly scary, you are obliged to bet the turn. Then later there is no shame to checking on 6th and the river if you put a heads-up player on a pair higher than 7's (and presumably less than your Q doorcard if you haven't been reraised). In a low stakes game it might be wrong to raise here as you do not want to see mulit-handed action on 5th or later here. In a high stakes fast game like the 100-200 at the Commerce it would be a major blunder not to raise here.
For another player the perception of their playing style at the table also is a factor. The more solid they are, or are playing, the more value this raise has.
(Taking the table stakes out of the equation, I would venture that if a poll was taken of the top 100 stud players--if anybody really knew who they are--over 90% would raise with the next choice being to actually slow play this hand rather than limp-in because they are scared of the K, because 1)they are inherently agressive players 2)they are probing for information and have more ability to move a hand around 3)they want to control the action and not to give any free cards 4) it's not all that great of a hand to keep liming-inn with.

[Rich P.]

Here's a possibility.

The limper probably has a big pair in the hole, most likely Aces. Whether he has a draw depends upon whether he expected callers behind him. Limping first in could mean two things: he has a draw and wants callers, or he has a big pair in the hole and wants to reraise.<font color="red">*</font color> The small ante makes the latter even more likely, because he wants to win more with his big pair. He's hoping either you or the King raise.

Now, you can accomodate him and raise, hope the K and 2 fold, and see if you get reraised by the 7. Your disadvantage is that if he does have a pair of Kings or Aces, you don't have an over card. If he has queens, your kicker is dead. One of your 7s is out. Finally, the size of the ante has to be considered to determine if there is enough dead money in the pot to justify going heads up against a probable overpair, dead kicker, in the hope that you will make two pair and your opponent won't.

Your advantage is that you will know if he improves to two pair and can quickly fold if his board pairs. Your Q is likely live as if he had Qs he probably would have came out betting fearing a call by the King. You know his sevens are dead but he doesn't. If he has Ks, then one of his pair cards are out. Finally, if he is on a draw, you will be a big favorite if he calls and may win the pot if he folds. <font color="red">** </font color>

My conclusion is that this is a raise situation. You definately want the K out. If you get reraised by the K, you have to fold. Furthermore, I don't like giving the 2 a free card even if the K folds. Finally, if you don't raise, you won't be as sure of your opponent's holding when he bets out on fourth street.

<font color="red">*</font color> It could also mean that he has a weak hand and is trying to get in cheap, but at this level, this is less likely.
<font color="red">**</font color> Of course, he could have a straight flush draw, another very powerful hand that you have to look out for.

[Ginogino]

Mason:
I am unused to play at this level. I'll try adjusting for the ante/bring-in/bet sizes, and for what I'd expect to be a higher level of play. The issue comes down, I think, to raise or fold. It's a semi-bluff analysis: what chance do you have of taking down the pot right now with a raise plus what chance do you have of winning in the long run. If the King has nothing else, and the bring-in is the usual garbage, and the 7 is going for something weak then you've got a chance to win with your raise. I'd guess you have one chance in three of winning right away.

As for your chances of winning if called, the good news is that most of the time it'll only be one of them that calls. And it look's like your Queen is live. If you raise to $40, the pot is offering you 2-to-1. So even if your chances of long-run victory aren't great, they're all profit (since the chance of everyone folding makes the raise at least break-even).

At lower limits, the correct choice is clearly to fold against most tables (though you do occasionally run up against a really tight table as the character of the game shifts over time). Somebody -- probably two of them -- is going to call you down to the river, so you lose that part of a semi-bluff that made the raise worthwhile at $40-80.
Note: large amounts of guesswork involved.

Gino