Informal, unscientific poll....

[Utah]

I would guess Yes. However, as I have stated many times that the government had many valid reasons for going to war that were simply too complex for the common person to understand. It reminds me of my govenment class in High School when the teacher asked, "who was the press secretary with Reagan when he was shot?". 6 girls immediately said with shock - "Reagan was shot!!?".

Also, you are twisting the argument to make the reader take as given that the reason for going to war was the WMD issue. The strongest argument however was that Saddam did not live up to the resolutions. He had several chances to stop the war.

Also, lets not forget that the Bush did not pull the WMD issue out of thin air as the Clinton adminstration thought the same thing. I am curious if Alger and the gang think that Clinton is evil for Desert Fox, since it is supposedly now clear that Clinton bombed for no just reason. Funny, but I simply do remember at the time any liberals attacking Clinton. Why are they so silent now?

[CCass]

IMO, it depends on what you mean by "the Bush Administration". I don't think the President knowingly lied about WMD. I do believe it is possible that someone working under the President "tweaked" the intel available to give the President the information he wanted to hear. Lots of people want to please their boss.

[andyfox]

"the government had many valid reasons for going to war that were simply too complex for the common person to understand."

The government had no complex reasons for going to war. The government likes to make you think that they have access to secret information and intricate complexities that makes their decision-making much tougher than the average person can know and, therefore, the average person should defer to their better judgment.

Bull.

High-schoolers may not know that Reagan was shot, but I'd be willing to bet that Bush and Cheney know less about history than you and I.

The United States did not give one damn about the U.N. resolutions. The U.N. did not favor going to war over Hussein's non-compliance. The U.N. resolutions were the convenient justification.

Of course liberals don't criticize Clinton, just as conservatives don't criticize Bush. The Democrats voted en masse 100% against impeachment. He was their guy and they were sticking with him, period. He's the only guy they've been able to elect since Vietnam (except for Jimmy Carter who got in only by accident [Watergate]).

BTW, it was during Clinton's second term that the Pentagon began to plan for renewing war with Iraq. The JCS's Strategic Assessment 1999 said that an "oil war" in the Persian Gulf was a serious contingency and that "U.S. forces might be used to ensure adequate supplies." There was a basic continuity of policy from Clinton to Bush. The only difference has been 9/11. Rumsfeld requested an immediate assault on Iraq hours after the 9/11 attacks and insisted that Iraq should be "a principal target of the first round in the war against terrorism."

The Project for the New American Century wrote Clinton on January 26, 1998 calling for "the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime from power." Ten of the eighteen signers became members of the Bush administration (including Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz).

Hussein had no chance to stop the war. Once 9/11 occurred he was toast.

[MMMMMM]

"Hussein had no chance to stop the war. Once 9/11 occurred he was toast."

Better late than never. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Utah]

Hi Andy,

The government had no complex reasons for going to war

Those complexities existed in reality. Whether Bush or the gang took into account these complexities is more of an open question I guess. However, I would certainly bet heavily that game theory analysis, monte Carlo type simulations, etc. did take place. Many of the complex analysis tools grew out of government projects and it stetches believability that higher ups were unaware of this analysis. Secondly, the analysis does not need to be overly complex to trip up the public. All on needs to do is throw in a few probabilities, contingencies, and possible scenarios and the public is toast.

The United States did not give one damn about the U.N. resolutions. The U.N. did not favor going to war over Hussein's non-compliance. The U.N. resolutions were the convenient justification.

I pretty much agree and have stated many times that the real justifications were hidden. I think the U.N. is a pretty worthless institution, other than merely providing a forum for international discussion. However, it must be noted that B.S. or not, the Bush Administration used the U.N. as a context for war. This has been mainly left out of the WMD discussions.

Of course liberals don't criticize Clinton, just as conservatives don't criticize Bush

I couldn't agree more. As I have said many times in the past that I am not a big G.W. fan. I consider my agruments more along the lines of - "The case against the case against going to war".

Hussein had no chance to stop the war. Once 9/11 occurred he was toast

Here I disagree. I think that if Saddam had complied fully then the pressure to stop the war would be too great. I simply believe he didn't believe that the U.S. had the guts to do it.

Hence, I have stated many times that the threat of force is the greatest weapon against using force. As game theory tells us, the "reckless" aggressor has the advantage.

Example: You and I are going to play chicken. There are three possible outcomes: you chicken, I chicken, or splat! The first two outcomes you can live with. Splat! is the only disaster. You see me getting into my car, downing a bottle of Jack Daniels, and putting on a blindfold. Do you chicken? This scenario plays on the global stage as well.

note: I am paraphrasing a section of Prisioners Dilemma by Poundstone

[bigpooch]

If the actual TRUTH were known about 9/11, the average
American would simply disbelieve it. Most humans on the
planet are "sheeople" and with the risk of offending almost
everyone on the planet, don't even realize how evil the
world really is! How does a passport survive while the
recordings of black box recorders are left unrevealed?

Isn't hilarious that the media spins stories to get the
American public to think in a certain way? Are the media
so easily manipulated or controlled or are sheeople so
stupid? Although I don't discount the remote possibility
that the engineers of what happenened on 9/11 were Americans
it is probably more likely that Saudis funded an operation,
American intelligence were aware of it, and the proper
execution of the operation was allowed to completion. Most
likely, this provided the necessary stage to use military
force in Afghanistan and Iraq and most probably was because
George Sr. or the power brokers just wanted to get rid of
Saddam Hussein (btw, aren't some of the power brokers in
Saudi Arabia?).

[CCass]

Would you care to enlighten me? What is the "actual TRUTH about 9/11"? What do you KNOW that the sheeople do not?

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
Most humans on the planet are "sheeople" and with the risk of offending almost everyone on the planet, don't even realize how evil the world really is!

[/ QUOTE ]

Will higher taxes and bigger government fix this problem [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]?

[bigpooch]

I don't know what I know that the typical person doesn't
know, but I do know that I can think for myself. It doesn't
matter if you have the right building blocks but can't build
very much! You can get some of the pieces at:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/index.html

and you can draw any conclusions and form any opinions on
your own. Don't let anyone sway your own analysis!

Also, if you want to be thorough, check out the sources and
think and rethink what really did happen. Discuss it with
some really smart people that are open minded and keep an
open mind but reject what couldn't be possible. Put your
mind into the minds of the participants, how they view the
world, what makes them tick (and what ticks them off!) and
how they will likely act and react. Talk some more, listen
to what people think happened and why they think so. Be as
objective as humanly possible!

After you have done all that, you may get closer to the
truth and IMHO, I am still very far from the TRUTH (the
more one knows, the less one knows) but I am convinced of
this:

The continued occupation of American forces in Saudi Arabia
years after the Gulf War, led Osama bin Laden (et al) to a
jihad against America.

Maybe if the first Bush Administration were better at
understanding the various views of the Saudi people and the
possible ramifications, they would not have continued to
leave any troops behind. They thought some fringe groups
were bluffing and called them but were shown the stone cold
nuts! Still, the American foreign policy could have been
based on what Bush Sr. thought (at that time) was the best
informed decision and unfortunately, didn't think history
would unravel as it did.

Also, when I look at the information, something really
stinks to high heaven! Thankfully, I believe in that in
the end, real justice will be meted out, so I don't really
get too stressed out about this! But it seems there were so
many things that the cognoscente want to hide, and my gut
feeling is that some of these things, if known to the
American people, are so utterly despicable, not many common
folk would believe it because they wouldn't want to believe
it!

[MMMMMM]

"The continued occupation of American forces in Saudi Arabia
years after the Gulf War, led Osama bin Laden (et al) to a
jihad against America."

This is hogwash, that's merely the excuse bin-Laden seized upon to justify his madness.

Only 5000 American troops were squirreled away quietly in a remote corner of Saudi Arabia, at the behest of the Saudi government, doing no harm to anyone, and even doing their best to respect the customs of the Saudis. American troops saved Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia by extension, from Saddam's bloody steamroller. So...exactly what was bin-Laden's beef? That they were defiling the sacred land, right?! LOL, Osama, you are an IDIOT--go back to the 9th century you retarded turd, you evil spirit spawned of the foulest pits of Acheron--or else wait 'til you get blown to hell, you deluded m0&$(&^%#$%^r. Of all the STUPIDEST excuses, this has to be tops.

When Osama meets Allah it will not be a merry meeting.