Push with nines? - Page 2

Acesover8s · #1 09-10-2005, 12:59 PM

I think the responses are interesting so far. 1/2 seem to think this is an easy fold, the others seem to think easy push.

Let's change my hand to AAJK, all other action is the same.

What do you do now?

Acesover8s · #2 09-10-2005, 01:05 PM

Well. . .

I assume most of the players who would fold the 9JQK here would INSTAPUSH with their AAxx.

The thing that should be immediately obvious to you is that the 9JQK is in MUCH better shape against any hand your opponent can hold than AAxx would be. (except a set which is very unlikely here)

This is important.

Ribbo · #3 09-11-2005, 11:07 AM

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I assume most of the players who would fold the 9JQK here would INSTAPUSH with their AAxx

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Ooooooookay homeslice. It's an easy fold for either hand facing aggression. I love your strawman arguement though, keep it up.

PokerGoblin · #4 09-11-2005, 12:55 PM

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Ooooooookay homeslice. It's an easy fold for either hand facing aggression. I love your strawman arguement though, keep it up.

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Aren't we the self-righteous one this morning.

The point of posting this hand is that this isn't the typical 'I'm either way ahead or way behind' dilemma. It goes way deeper than that.

The 9JQK hand is not an easy fold. There's a case to be made for every option. Alot of it comes down to personal preference. I am not a fan of coin flips in cash games, but if you think it will affect your table image and get you action in future hands it may be worth the gamble.

I think very little of the time UTG is bluffing and very little of the time he has a set. Not that those possibilities should be ignored, but their likelihood is less than usual.

PG

Ribbo · #5 09-11-2005, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ooooooookay homeslice. It's an easy fold for either hand facing aggression. I love your strawman arguement though, keep it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't we the self-righteous one this morning.

The point of posting this hand is that this isn't the typical 'I'm either way ahead or way behind' dilemma. It goes way deeper than that.

The 9JQK hand is not an easy fold. There's a case to be made for every option. Alot of it comes down to personal preference. I am not a fan of coin flips in cash games, but if you think it will affect your table image and get you action in future hands it may be worth the gamble.

I think very little of the time UTG is bluffing and very little of the time he has a set. Not that those possibilities should be ignored, but their likelihood is less than usual.

PG

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You drawl on about the blaringly obvious as though you're making some previously unheard of sage advice. None of what you have just said is news to anyone who has played the game longer than a few months. As with every other rhetorical question that gets asked, the same answer is always relevant, "it depends".

His whole arguement was that most people who would fold a pair of nines wouldn't fold a pair of aces. This is utterly terrible and incorrect. He built a strawman and proceeded to knock it down. Folding of two aces in that position is quite easy for the very reasons already given by others. You've only put $4 into the pot. Indeed it was Doyle himself who said "Don't lose all your chips in an unraised pot". You really don't need to take either AAxx or KQJ9 any further if someone is being aggressive. You're playing KQJ9 to flop a nice straight wrap, not to flop 1 pair with suboptimal kicker. http://www.ribbo.com/omaha9.htm

PokerGoblin · #6 09-10-2005, 04:51 PM

W/ AAxx it's a little trickier. You have to look at it like the best you can hope is that you are tied, and you are way behind to hands like 3-4-5-6, etc. But, it's like you say, a lot of people will assume you have AA when you raise in PLO. They play their hands almost as if it's a foregone conclusion.

AAxx would be easier to get away from in this spot IMO.

PG

BluffTHIS! · #7 09-10-2005, 01:27 PM

Well aces, I know you have been waiting with bated breath for my reply so here it is. The key factor is what you put your opponent on. It could a set which you seem to believe unlikely on a rainbow board but he could be afraid of a straight draw since a late position raiser could often have 8765 or similar. He could also have 2 pair with like AK93ds or bottom 2 with a straight draw himself, or just 1 pair plus a straight draw. The last possible holding is an overpair such as AA/KK played slow preflop because of junky sidecards.

As you say, your hand is not in bad shape against anything other than a set. But you want to play in a way that doesn't insure you lose the max when you are beat come the river while only winning a little when you are ahead which running him off a marginal holding would do when you raise sometimes. Like Dave said a lot depends on your read if you have played with him much. But I think a very viable option is to just call and see what the turn brings. The pot size will then be such that he has to either bet or call allin. If another high card comes and he checks, he often can be squarely put on bottom 2 or 1 pair plus a draw and you can bet top 2 then, still having outs to fill if he has a lower set, and can charge him to draw if he doesn't. And if the turn doesn't give you 2 pair but does bring a backdoor flush draw for you then you can take a free card. So in summary I prefer to call but would fold before raising. And although only calling invites the SB to come in cheaper, he will only do so with a draw or weak holding and that is more odds on your money if you are behind and need to help.

You should also think what he puts you on. If he puts you on AA he can either beat it or is trying to run you off it. So again calling lets a weaker hand bet his money off while not losing as much if he has you beat and you don't like the turn. I know I frequently criticize others for calling their stacks off with bad money odds draws, but this situation seems like it merits it if you don't think a fold is in order.

obi---one · #8 09-10-2005, 03:26 PM

you have position, why not use it?

Acesover8s · #9 09-10-2005, 08:43 PM

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you have position, why not use it?

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Effective stacks are small, and the position doesn't do me much good. By smooth calling (as BluffThis suggested) I can make the decision to call or not call on the turn.

I did ponder this option at the time, but stack sizes make it a poor idea. It becomes problematic because there are number of turn cards that could cause me to lose my nerve. Particularly terrible cards are 7 and Ace, both of which may secure a pass when I still have the best hand.

It does have the advantage of allowing me to get my chips in as a bigger favorite if I catch an improving card on the turn; but in most spots I think pushing the flop is easier so I don't have to play guessing games.

I agree with a lot of what BluffThis says in this post, but one idea is problematic:

" So again calling lets a weaker hand bet his money off while not losing as much if he has you beat and you don't like the turn"

The problem being my hand isn't strong enough that I really want to 'walk the dog'. Even the purest bluff has some equity against me.

BluffTHIS! · #10 09-10-2005, 11:55 PM

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I agree with a lot of what BluffThis says in this post, but one idea is problematic:

" So again calling lets a weaker hand bet his money off while not losing as much if he has you beat and you don't like the turn"

The problem being my hand isn't strong enough that I really want to 'walk the dog'. Even the purest bluff has some equity against me.

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This would be true if you have much fold equity by virtue of raising. But when he bets in front of the preflop raiser like that with a small stack left, I think your fold equity is pretty small, so again I would probably prefer just to call. The only hands he folds are an overpair or bottom 2, and with that small amount of money left he often won't let it go unless it's QQ. The prime virtue of raising though is to get rid of AA/KK and especially KK since that would nullify some of your outs.