Flopped 2 pair but don't know what to do with it

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
You have ten outs if you are raised

[/ QUOTE ]
4

[Evan]

Are you check-folding?

[Rocco]

You can't force an opponent with a heart or an eight out, but you can make it as expensive as possible for them to draw. And by checking, you invites someone holding a T or a 5 to grab a free card. That's a big NO-NO! Bet out and re-raise...

[Bluffoon]

oops

[IndieMatty]

This is such an odd situation, we have to be transported to the alternate universie. On our Earth- I am betting the flop. Leading the turn, and spiking a 6 on the river.

Again, if somehow Bizzarro Matt checked this flop..On the turn, I'm checking and folding to a two bet. Like I said, Pot's small.

[Evan]

So you're check-calling 1 bet? Do you see where I'm going with this?

[IndieMatty]

Yeah...this is like asking me what I would do with 2-9o to an EP raise, I claim ignorance.

Lead the turn. Good Call Evan.

[Evan]

In case anyone wants more of an explanation...this is basically straight out of Theory of Poker. If you're planning to call 1 bet its almost always better to lead than to check-call. In some cases you'll clean up outs (not here) or make a better hand fold (maybe the 1 card idiot end of the striaght); obviously this will also be a value bet plenty often.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand bet/raising the flop, it does nothing to protect my hand and I am out of position.

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Has anyone else noticed a trend since SSH?

I have seen several posts recently which say some variant of "I didn't bet/raise because it wouldn't have protected my hand; they would have been correct to call." (Nothing against Sent here; as I said, I've seen it (and thought it) a lot recently.)

Charging them when they are correct to call is just as important as charging them when they are correct to fold.

_______

Having said that, I wonder if waiting for the turn is so bad. There are 18/45 cards left which will seriously devalue our hand and we have to dodge them twice. If we raise and only the bettors call, we are getting 3-1 on the raise and (assuming the various draws are there) we are no better than 2.2-1 to win the hand. (Some of the draws aren't there, of course, but other ones like a pair and an overcard, probably are. If a bad card does come, we will either have to fold, reducing our chances of winning, or pay them off, redcing our implied odds.) All in all, a fairly low (but still positive) EV raise. If we wait until the turn (and we dodge the bad cards) our equity jumps and we can bet and raise with confidence.

Could an arguement be made along these lines or am I streching another SSH concept too far? Consider this an extended HMMMMM rather than a strong argument.

...
On further reflection I think the answer lies in whether we can fold to a scare card. If we are seeing the showdown most of the time regardless, then raising the flop is mandatory. If we can fold to a bad card and some aggression, then waiting becomes more attractive.

Any thoughts?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
If we can fold to a bad card and some aggression, then waiting becomes more attractive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Looking for chances to fold is bad.